Well, Hopper has given us evidence in his own mind that gospel doctrine lesson 24 speaks about a person being born gay or straight (for that matter). Lesson 24 doesn’t give that description at all. Everyone can read it. You are a ding dong Hopper. There is absolutely no church doctrine that says that people aren’t born with predispositions in many areas. Same sex attraction and alcoholism Along with a host of other predispositions are obviously at play here. It doesn’t change what sin is, but there are parts of the natural man that must be thrown off and some have specific crosses to bear in this life. Your false statements on Church doctrine are your opinion, not gospel doctrine. According to lesson 24, anyone who writes or speaks something that goes beyond what you can find in the standard works, or from a prophet, seer or revelator …we can safely say “that it is his own idea” and if he contradicts what is in the standard works … You may know it is false. So your statements that"God didnt create disasters and he didn’t create people who are gay are just what lesson 24 points out… Your own doctrine and your ideas. Maybe they are true, but probably not. But they certainly aren’t church doctrine at this point. Predisposition to same sex attraction is more likely than not, something that came in the genes of some of our brothers and sisters in this mortal life. It is obvious that God created everything in the Plan of Salvation and so he did set in motion the ability for the world to experience disasters and he did make all spirit children who have lived or will yet live on this Earth. So, he did make individuals who are predisposed to same sex attraction and natural disasters do happen in His plan!
I don’t have a clue what you are attacking me for? You obviously are dillutional today. There are parts in lesson 24 that are explicit for people who attempt to deceive in order to make this sin not a sin.
Try to be more pithy too.
As for why people become gay, the Bible says it’s because their minds became reprobate. Romans Chapter 1.
One last and final time, Hopper. Being gay is NOT a
sin . Not matter how hard you pound your first as you write comments on this board that being gay is a sin doesn’t make it so. It is not church doctrine. When you speak of it that way you show your lack of understanding. Acting out the same sex attraction is the sin. Gay people can enter into all the ordinances of the Gospel with out offending God. Practising homosexual behavior is the issue. Huge difference. Maybe you would be better served by spending your time doing more meaningful things?
Do you have a few brain cells missing? I’ve never said being gay is a sin. Romans Chapter 1 refers to the reprobate mind allowing homosexuals to perform vile acts and in this case they did. If a homosexual does not turn from God to do unseemly acts then they have not sinned.
However, as with any heterosexual sins, entertaining such thoughts could already be sin in their hearts.
Lesson 24 simply reminds us not to be deceived and accept things like gay marriage as being okay. The world will deceive and is trying mightily to condemn the commandments of God.
Nice try, Aro.
Here is the reason why the church is double talking with it comes to gay relationships vs. hetero premarital relationships. As I have pointed out in a past post:
We don’t shy away from baptizing children in homes where the parents are not married.
We advance males in the priesthood even when their parents are living in sin.
We don’t excommunicate couples that live together, we encourage them to participate in church functions with the hope that they do get married. We are very “involved” and “loving” toward them throughout the church.
As a missionary, I could offer baptism to everyone except for three situations…murder, late term abortion, gay relationships.
So you see, there is sin and there is bad bad sin. So lets no mince words here anymore. there is no room in our church for a gay person, end of subject.
My married son and his partner cannot be part of this church and neither can their children…kind of sucks for our family because we are very tight.
There is nothing that keeps your son and his partner from attending church…or his kids for that matter. If by saying there is no room in the church for them, you are really meaning that ordinances can’t be performed for or by them, then you are correct. But, they must realize that the commandments aren’t going to be changed if the church is in fact Christ’s church. The children issue is the hardest one to get a handle on. It appears to not be fair on the surface, but we may not know the full picture and in the end the children will be able to have all their work done including baptism. There is no advantage to being a member for a longer numbers of years than other people are. It is how you live your life and live up to your commitments.
Don’t lose the faith! Good kids will stay the course until they have an opportunity for baptism… If they aren’t going to make good life choices, being baptized won’t save them anyway.
And I agree completely!
As far as I know, my wife’s cousin’s son is attending Church. He is sometimes involved with another man. He loves the Church even though of the teachings. But he does attend church.
I don’t know what the end game is on this same sex attraction issue. What I do know is that it will be very difficult, if not impossible, to not give people the right to marry who they want to in a world that is not governed by Christ. I don’t agree with same sex marriage because I understand the Plan of Salvation. The majority of the people on Earth do not know or understand the Plan. I can see that the moral issue will not win out over perceived rights to marry who you want. The way things are headed, plural marriage will be legal in the next 20 years or so. We have to allow people to make choices, that is a bigger part of the Plan than trying to limit options that don’t hurt others but go against moral values we understand to be from God. Same sex marriage will probably continue to be legal in most states. Legal and moral are two different things. The only way to stop this type of activity, legally, is for the second coming to occur. We should vote our consciences, but not be too disappointed when we lose our vote to public opinion. My issue with you Hopper, is that you said God didn’t create gays or natural disasters. I believe he did, that is all. Pre disposition came to earth, for some reason, with the Plan of Salvation. I don’t fully understand why, but it is very very difficult for those who have the inclination to make choices that lead away from Heavenly Father. Our hearts go out to same sex attraction individuals and to those who find it difficult to obey the Law of Chastity. Hopefully they can build the courage, over time, to change behavior or just not engage. We should love all of them and support them as our brothers and sisters.
if you say people are born that way, then all he would have allowed is for thorns and thistles to torment mankind and eventually change the human biology. But God didn’t just all of a sudden make Adam fall for Steve. It was nature or choice. God doesn’t make people sin. I think you would agree with that.
There is only ONE FACT and that is that a small percentage of humans are sexually attracted to the same gender as they are and have same gender sexual contact. Everything else is belief, assumptions, conjecture, contrived and / or falsified, including psychiatric, social sciences and psychological sciences research and pronouncements. Much of the research is flawed if not outright falsified, in general, and specifically with this subject.
It’s why following God is paramount in all decisions. The only thing we do know is the acts are sin. And our part is to help all to come unto Christ. Repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, keep and support God and his commandments. Do this all by faith.
grasshopper,
We have not yet reached the status of the Lord.
The scripture says, Judge not, lest we be judged and leave ALL judging to the Lord.
We can make all the changes we want, if we want. We can explain away what the Lord meant to say, or we can accept the fact that it is he that said it, and we can believe it, and not have a need to clarify it for the Lord.
Nothing I said is judging. It’s a fact.
grasshopper,
I am not doubting your facts, but I would appreciate verification.
In the Bible please give book, chapter and verse that indicates that the LGBT community is an abomination in the site of the Lord, where it does not also include heterosexual unacceptable behavior, and or those lying with animals as also being sinful.
Romans Chapter 1 all of it read it.
Here is just the heading: “The gospel is the power of God unto salvation through Jesus Christ–The wrath of God rests on those guilty of murder, homosexual practices, fornication, and other sins if the guilty do not repent.”
Verse 26-27, “26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”
Is there anything in the words “vile affection” and “lust” that doesn’t mean homosexual acts and behavior are wickedness? Bad, bad, bad…
And here it’s stated clearly homosexual acts and behavior is wickedness and complete incompatible with the gospel of Jesus Christ: 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
No one is saying there isn’t heterosexual acts that are wickedness. Of course there is. But because there is heterosexual sin doesn’t dismiss homosexual sin.
Scott,
My intent is not to argue, but to offer a different point of view. Reading, as you suggest, all of Chapter 1, I have done so and this is what I found:
Romans Chapter 1 (Verse 1-23 really doesn’t say much about the subject.)
Verse
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
(Doesn’t this include heteroseual as well as Bi-sexual behavior?)
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
- In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
(Isn’t this in addition to both heterosexual and Bi-sexual behavior in
verse 24.?)
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
(Do we treat the same as we treat or see the LGBT community, those that have greed, envy,strife,deceit, malice, and those that gossip, slander, and those that are arrogant, and boastful, and those that disobey their parents, and those that seem to have no love, no mercy, all of which deserve death,. If so, please explain. If not, why not. While all of these actions, deserve death in the eyes of the Lord, why do we single out the LGBT community?) This is why I believe that someday, it will be said that this was the opinion of the day but not actual doctrine.
As you point out,
“The gospel is the power of God unto salvation through Jesus Christ–The wrath of God rests on those guilty of murder, homosexual practices, fornication, and other sins if the guilty do not repent.”
Murder, homosexual practices, fornication, and other sins. The other sins are spelled out above. We choose to pick out the homosexual practices from the fornication and other sins as spelled out above.
While vese 26 actually spells out homosexuality, the verse 27 also includes equally the other sins which we do not recognize as equal.
I cut and past: your verse 29-30 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
(and from all of this, many of which, we are all guilty of, we single out the LGBT community.
Your final remarks, ( No one is saying there isn’t heterosexual acts that are wickedness. Of course there is. But because there is heterosexual sin doesn’t dismiss homosexual sin.) I totally agree with you, but we single out the homosexual behavior and we do not single out to the same degree, heterosexual behavior. Just saying !!!
“Your final remarks, ( No one is saying there isn’t heterosexual acts that are wickedness. Of course there is. But because there is heterosexual sin doesn’t dismiss homosexual sin.) I totally agree with you, but we single out the homosexual behavior and we do not single out to the same degree, heterosexual behavior. Just saying !!!”
Response: You did it several times. It’s the apologist method of rejecting a particular sin and trying to silence the word of God. You are unable to see that it is the liberals and LGBT’s that are trying to eliminate homosexual acts as sin? They also try and have done a good job at eliminating heterosexual fornications too. You are buying into their playbook.
You asked me to give you chapter and verse and I did so. There are other versus in the Bible too. Let’s not blurt the sin by trying to move the goalpost to heterosexual sin 
Grasshopper:
LDS apostle M. Russell Ballard used
Brigham Young University devotional address
Tuesday to, (among other things), address, where gay Mormons fit in the faith.
“ “I am a general authority but that doesn’t make me an authority in general,”
He then quipped. “I worry that members expect too much from their leaders and teachers,
expecting them to be experts [in areas and topics] well beyond their expertise.”
“ If you have a question that requires an expert, please take the time to find an expert to help you.”
“ On perfection • Avoid comparing yourselves to others and putting too much stock in what some people post on social media, knowing what is portrayed is often “fake lives, edited, boastful and unreal.”
Seeking perfection is a lifelong quest, possible only with the help of Jesus Christ.”
On LGBT Mormons • Any member has a place in God’s kingdom. It may be difficult sometimes for gay Latter-day Saints to see “where you fit in the Lord’s church but you do.”
Mormon leaders, along with the rank and file, need to “listen to and understand what LGBT members are feeling and experiencing. We must do better than we have in the past until all feel they have a spiritual home … a place to worship and serve the Lord.”
On LGBT civil rights • The best approach is to protect “core rights” of all people and then find “reasonable compromises in other areas where rights conflict.” The LDS Church successfully lobbied for Utah’s 2015 law protecting LGBT individuals from housing and job discrimination while safeguarding some religious liberties. Earlier this year, the Utah-based faith filed legal papers backing a Colorado baker who refused on religious grounds to make a cake for a same-sex wedding.
On bullying • The church strongly condemns “bullying or harassment of any kind.” Every person is a child of God and deserves to be treated with kindness and to work with. All humans are “fallible,
flawed.” At some point in your own life, you may disappoint or fail your loved ones. “No father, no mother, no children, no professor, no student, no missionary or mission president is perfect. The only real solution … is to forgive and love one another.”
I personally agree with Apostle M. Russell Ballard’s comments Grasshopper. Do you agree with all that he said, as posted above?
Nothing he says is against the scriptures I stated in a book of doctrine, the Bible. There is nothing in the D&C that trumps the Bible pronouncement against homosexual acts.
What Elder Ballard was stating is what is true for all people concerning the three degrees of glory. We had a gay man in this forum in years past and I don’t remember his name but he’s gay and married to a woman. He said for whatever reason he is attracted to only one woman, his wife. He’s valiant with his testimony and a candidate for the Celestial Kingdom. But, for those who aren’t able to be as valiant, but still are good people, there is the Terrestrial Kingdom. Those who are buried in their lusts and have rejected or never had a testimony there is the Telestial Kingdom. So, Elder Ballard is correct.