Fish, the church doesn’t have a problem with you’re son being gay. The problems occur when commandments are broken. Not a commandment against bring gay. Also, it is the Lords church, not my church or hoppers church or your church. Joseph Smith didn’t restore the fullness of the Gospel to the Earth, the Savior did. And we must remember the Plan of Salvation is the Masters plan. Don’t get too caught up in the small details here and there. Things are rarely black and white… Which is probably a bad saying… Given this forum. Not intended in any way to be racist.
Your son is lucky (blessed) to have you as a father. Anyone who would judge you for the way you have handled your family situation doesn’t really get the most fundamental gospel principles. As for your son, there will always be hope for those that exercise faith and do the best they can. We all fall short of his glory and rely on his mercy and redeeming power. Hang in there and keep the faith.
Many of us have wayward or challenges of different kinds with family members. I have one that could be a Son of Alma. But, I haven’t written him off. Last couple of weeks I spent a lot of time with him helping him through a double hernia surgery. A couple of days ago I got the opportunity to bear my testimony to him if a spiritual experience in my distant past. We never give up. But I have never questioned the Godhead, the Gospel nor the Church because my children have struggled.
My 2nd son went inactive when his bishop shares private information with one of my son’s friend. But, my testimony never waivered.
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I know, I am preaching to the choir. I think almost everyone on this board has experienced things that have solidified their faith and testimony in the gospel. But, we also are constantly tried and tested and some challenges can be almost overwhelming. That’s where a listening ear and a word of compassion and support go a long way towards dealing with the challenges. I’m sorry your son had his confidence betrayed by his bishop. Maybe your son will watch your example and eventually have a change of heart. I hope so.
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This week’s lesson in our ward’s gospel doctrine class is how to not be deceived and fall into apostasy. Some of the reasons people have fallen in the past are silly arguments and happenings than having a child be deceived that they are gay. But that’s Satan for you. We just need to keep our testimony strong.
Really Hopper? What gospel doctrine lesson is that? Number please!? Are you quoting the lesson or just inserting your own doctrine again and proclaiming that the leaders of the church agree with you? Are you trying to tell us that the church has doctrine that precludes a child being born with a predisposition towards same sex attraction?
A lot of people on this board have shared their stories about friends and family members that are gay. We all know the Church’s stand on gays but we all react to the issue differently it seems. I just get frustrated when people think they are supporting the Church’s position by lashing out against gays. They forget that we are taught to love the sinner. Loving the sinner doesn’t mean we also love the sin.
I have two family members that are gay. One was in my brother-in-law’s family. He came out gay back in the late 1970s. He was basically ostracized by his family and he left Idaho for a life in San Francisco. To my knowledge, his family never again had much contact with him.
The second case was with my wife’s youngest brother. He served a mission but then went off to a job in Atlanta where he drifted away from Church activity and got involved with a gay lifestyle, alcohol, drugs, and other self destructive behavior. I remember him coming to a family reunion and lying on the beach in a speedo and his long dreadlocks. The family embraced him and accepted him as an important member of the family. Twenty years later, he still enjoys a warm relationship with his family. He continues to struggle with personal challenges but he has a good relationship with his Bishop, has a testimony and even teaches in his Elders Quorum.
So here you have two different families, two different ways to handle a situation with the gay lifestyle, two completely different outcomes. Showing love and compassion for a family member struggling with same sex attraction shouldn’t be interpreted as a first step towards apostasy if that is the point you are making. Members of the Church are not perfect and they can sometimes have a double standard when it comes to the commandments. Why do we sometimes judge a person living a gay lifestyle more harshly than a promiscuous heterosexual person? Why is it easier to be compassionate and understanding of an unmarried single mom. With regards to the W of W, why do we focus on smoking and alcohol and hardly ever mention the need to eat meat sparingly? That’s why I feel that if we become less judgmental and focus on the two great commandments, we will be so much more effective in living the gospel and leading our family and loved ones to Christ…
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Hey Glenn, I appreciate you going to bat so to speak. You would make a heck of a bishop.
Your point to gays being singled out over hetero couples living together outside of marriage is a blatant example of our church’s double standard. We work work work to fellowship unwed couples and to encourage them to marry. We work with their children all through their life, scouts, YM/YW…we baptize them even if their parents are unwed.
But when a gay person is involved there certainly a strong negative response in the church, as witnessed by the comments here on this board. That same sentiment is most likely church wide and until the brethren show a kinder attitude towards gay people, we will continue to find this “justified hate” going on in the church. That was my point all along…Elder Nielsen’s talk and others point to decision or a policy and not a doctrine and that is why it was censored by either himself after a lot of blowback or by a panel of peers.
#24: you are being deceived and I advise that you leave Satan’s influence. Are you suggesting that we believe you are a prophet and know there are gay spirits? What I do know that is square with doctrine is that homosexual acts are vile sins against God. And that only heterosexual marriage is approved by God. Your attempt to confuse others concerning this “doctrine” is appalling.
I agree with you Glenn. My wife has a cousin with a gay child. His situation may be a bit different but he has accepted a rebrobate mind. However, he still believes the Church to be true and vacillates between sin and activity. We have always accepted him but have made it clear not the homosexual behavior. He has to have some iron rod to hang on to.
What irritates me is the members trying to change doctrine through so-called science.
THERRE ARE SOOOOOO MANY SCRIPTURES IN THE BIBLE THAT SHOW EXAMPLES OF HOW JESUS HIMSELF, WAS NOT JUDGEMEMTAL.
"LET HE WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE.
“RENDER ONTO CEZAR THAT WHICH IS CEZAR’S AND RENDER ONTO GOD, THAT WHICH IS HIS”
“EATING WITH THE TAX COLLECTOR”
“CHOOSING HIS APOSTLES, NOT FROM THE CHURCHES, SINAGOGS, OR TEMPLES, BUT AMONG ROUGH FISHERMEN”
The Gospels of forgiveness and of Tolerance.
Are these examples not important? Can re rationalize them away?
And then there was the OT where the Lord judged harshly those who sinned having the Israelites slay them all. Or judging Israel several times driving them out of the land of their inheritance.
And, actually in each case you shared he was judging. He told the harlot to sin no more meaning he told her she was sinning and stop it. He told the people to pay their tithing as he has commanded them to. The Apostles taught the people to keep the commandments and not participate in vile affections and other vile sins.
With that in mind, we all make personal judgments every moment of every day about ourselves and others. We attempt to help others in need. And we should because we have been commanded to do so. But that doesn’t mean we keep our mouths closed when others sin either. While Jesus ate with the sinners in a wicked house, he also taught them they were sinning and needed to repent. I don’t know why you ignor these facts that do exist.
There was also the incident of Jesus driving the money changers out of the temple. I am sure that was judgement and action. Making one incident or circumstance or one verse, or sentence or phrase general to all other circumstances does not wash in what we know about the gospel and living a good life.
It seems we have now covered several words and actions by the Savior that were judgments and actions. Not just one. Add the Apostles words of the Bible and you have many. Especially if Paul’s. Romans Chapter 1 specifically as he covers many vile sins leading to Telestial glory or perdition.
I wasn’t very clear - "the one incident or circumstance or one verse, or sentence or phrase general . . . " was regarding another posters comments about judging not. There are times to judge (many times in our lives) with action of some sort and some judgements without action. There are also times that the action after judgement includes love, comfort and support.
Yes, of course. For every negative 10 positives should be applied. Church courts are supposed to be courts of love. But all too often the sinner rebels and doesn’t change and come back. They blame everyone and everything but themselves. Like Hillary 
That’s my point Scott!!
Judge not, lest ye be judged, and leave all judging to God. It is the Lords job to judge, not ours, yet we keep trying to take his job into our own hands when commanded not to.
I would really like to get back to football talk. We, each of us, from our own background experiences, will never agree on this subject. Let’s stay friends and respectfully agree to disagee on this issue.
Back to football.
The gospel is about forgiveness and love and certainly none of us can make any judgments concerning the eternal reward of another. That is the judgment that is left to God. All but a tiny few will receive a reward of one degree or another. I don’t believe the judge not scripture, that is often quoted, was ever intended to imply that we don’t judge certain behaviors as good and some as sinful. Most behavior’s can easily be judged as either good or sinful if one has some education as to what behavior’s have been defined as sin. .
Part of the duties of stake presidents, and bishops, is to sit in judgment of individuals on those occasions when church disciplinary counsels are necessary. It would be the bishopric, or stake presidency and high council who would make a judgment on what the appropriate action would be. concerning a church member’s standing who has been involved in certain sins.
If you knew that the elder’s quorum president was having an affair with the young women’s president, and I repeat if you knew that to be fact, would it not be appropriate to advise the bishop or should we sit back and say judge not lest ye be not judged? If you knew a married Melchizedek Priesthood holder was having a homosexual affair would you sit back and say judge not or would you bring it to the attention of the bishop, if you knew? Some of this stuff is not rocket science. We know what is right and what is wrong and we are expected to make judgments in that regard.
On the other hand if we know a member has same sex attraction it isn’t our place to make a judgment unless that person acts on it. It becomes a sin no less heinous than adultery when it is acted upon. Being an alcoholic isn’t a sin unless you drink. Alcoholics have something in their physical makeup that makes them unable to drink in moderation so it is a serious error on their part to ever indulge in drinking. I am no scientist, and no expert on same sex attraction, but I think it may be valid to compare same sex attraction to alcoholism. That is just my opinion. It isn’t science and it isn’t church doctrine. Fortunately I am not running for political office and can be honest in my opinions.
Saying that we don’t judge means we only judge righteously and that all judgment involving the eternal reward of a soul is committed to Christ. To say that we can’t make judgments about many behaviors that can be defined as sin is just not the case. It is not our place to judge the eternal fate and an individual’s standing in the church because none of us is without sin but we would be fools not to judge actions and behaviors.
I agree Aro
Excellent post! I like your analogy between homosexual behavior and alcoholism. Pretty much shuts down the idea it’s science and natural. Or that because there is a disease of the body it’s okay to enter into homosexual behavior.