I was recently listening to a Christian program talking about polygamy from the old testament times as written in the Bible. They were doing their best to destroy the concept. They even went to the new testament to show bishops and deacons must have only one wife. But, after a half an hour of this, they made a quick statement at the end acknowledging that there were times when God allowed polygamy and it was not a sin. The whole program trashing polygamy and the Mormons and then they acknowledge it is for a few righteous men.
Floyd: hmm… Scott, please go do some research…
Many of Joseph wives were between the age of 13 and 18 years old, they were not just “sealed” to him, but was a married to him in all biblical terms (meaning sexual intimacy). It is very well documented in historical books at the BYU library if you want to go find them.
Scott: Ummm…are you still reading 30 year old research? The 13 year old you are referring to stated there was no physical intimacy. And, she married someone else later. As I mentioned, do some up to date studying of this issue and you will learn that there was more than one reason for sealings early on in the Church. As I said, men were sealed to Joseph Smith too. Not as gay marriages. There was one maid where Emma was suppose to have caught Joseph with in the barn and she was 16. But, the story was written and controlled by former members of the Church. Try looking on some internet sights like Jeff Lindsay.com. He has a lot about church history and questions people have answered. He links to other Mormon sights for studying these issues. But, to just keep perpetuating the same old stuff from 30, 40 50 years ago doesn’t help anyone.
Scott: Been going on since the dawn of time. I did my student teaching at Dixon Jr. High in Provo and I saw and heard plenty. I worked for our town’s recreation department during the summer where we had kids there who were LDS. I saw and heard plenty. It gets back to not judging others but simply keeping the commandments ourselves and that’s what you tell them.
Scott: There is a member who is now in his 40’s. He’s marred to one of my former students at the high school I taught at and coached at. His wife told me why he’s inactive. It had to do with an interview to do baptisms for the dead in the Temple. He said he was asked an inappropriate question. He left the room and never returned. The question was if he had masterbated. So, is that a question that should have been asked? I don’t know because I’ve never been a Bishop to do a youth interview. I’ve been a councilor in a couple of bishoprics but that’s it. Maybe current or former bishops in here can answer that one.
The man isn’t antagonistic towards the Church today. In fact, 18 years ago, I blessed their first baby together at their ward and he was present. His wife had been inactive but has been more active over the past 18 years or so. Her mother had been excommunicated long ago. But, about 5 years before she died recently, she was re-baptized and went to the temple again before dying. Her sister has been inactive since she was 5 years old has just recently moved into our ward and my wife and I are already in the door. I’m also still working with both husbands now.
Scott: What about what is taught in schools about the conflicts of science, evolution and the age of the earth and the universe? John 3:12, “If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?” When do the youth start questioning things? High school and college, right?
Scott: So, where do you go to get answers for them?
There will always be people looking for a reason out. That’s what I think. The Church is true and Jesus Christ is at the head of the Church. We do have a tendency to put Church leaders on a pedestal and act like groupies. We are blessed today because through the mistakes of the past we have righteous leaders. Not perfect but righteous trying their best in a difficult world. Just like the ancient apostles and prophets did. They weren’t perfect and many had multiple wives. So what?
Actually, “many” of his wives weren’t that young. Just a few. Also, we don’t know that he had sex with them (although, it wouldn’t bother me if he did. He did consider them to be wives in every sense of the word). When it comes to evidence, there is even less evidence of sex with the teenage wives than with his other wives. It appears to me that these marriages in particular were of a sealing only nature, connected with blessings for the families of the girls (Sarah Ann Whitney is a good example of this). I think most people view this issue through the lens of “presentism.” For people who have a real problem with the age issue, I ask them to find out how old their great-great-great grandma and grandpa were when they got married. That is usually an eye-opener (teenage wife and husband on average 6-10 years older).
This is a sticky issue, and the gospel topics essay is worse than not saying anything at all, in my opinion. The essay disavows past explanations for the ban, but doesn’t give any explanation in their places. And all of the explanations can’t be disavowed, because we still refer to pre-existence choices as positively impacting mortality in other areas not associated with race. The essays are all outsourced to scholars and appear without the Brethren’s names attached for a reason (Paul Reeve wrote the priesthood ban one, and Brian Hales wrote the Joseph Smith polygamy one). I think it would be much better for the Brethren themselves to directly address these issues, rather than settle for the “plausible deniability” of anonymous essays on the web site.
This is an excellent book! MMM is one of our worst things in our history, but it was a breakdown of local leadership and Salt Lake had nothing to do with it. Critics have shot themselves in the foot by trying to “take down” Brigham Young and the Church with it. Still, it was an absolutely terrible thing that cannot be defended in any way.
The crazy thing is that it was the same ward in the Eagle Mountain Stake where the 11 year-old girl had her mike cut off in testimony meeting for reading a gay marriage manifesto (her parents and gay activists visiting filmed it and celebrated and left after the fracas) that the woman recorded her stake president (he handled it just fine, but man, what a circus!)
I always assume I’m being recorded in this day and age, even though I really don’t think I am.
I’m glad I’m not in that crazy stake near Saratogo Spring, though!
The idea that Joseph Smith was having sex with all those who were sealed to him didn’t yield any children and he had no problem with sperm count as he and Emma had many children.
Sealings were done in the beginning to seal Brethren to him so they would all be lifted up to heaven on the shirttail of the Prophet. Thus, men were sealed to men for that purpose. We forget that we are taught line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little. The sealing concept was no different. It was thought people had to be sealed to the Prophet. If a husband was a non-member and wasn’t going to join, the wife could be sealed to Joseph Smith and that happened. Today, she would just wait and have his work done after he died. In the meantime, the wife would be sealed to her parents. Back then, sealings were linear and today they are a pyramid with Adam and Eve on top. We finally understood it and got it right. Line upon line.
I don’t believe, based on the evidence, that he had sex with most of his wives. Opportunities for such, especially with him being on the run and in hiding during that time, were not many.
But he certainly did with at least some. Given the secrecy among the men and women involved, the only way we know about the polygamy at all (for the most part) is the affidavits his wives gave in Utah to combat claims from the RLDS Church that it was all made up and that polygamy started with Brigham Young. These affidavits make it clear that they were husband and wife in every sense of the word (Eliza Snow is one of these). That’s pretty much the only evidence for sex that is available (affidavit statements), and none of these are from the teenage wives.
DNA testing ruled out Josephine Lyons as Joseph Smith’s daughter, and there is strong family tradition that she was (hence the name Josephine). I agree with you that it is remarkable that there haven’t been any verifiable children from his 26-33 marriages other than through Emma.
Why is it crazy?
I think the Brethren have done a remarkable job keeping the Church together as large and expansive as it is.
Why is what crazy?
The only thing I called crazy (to the best of my knowledge) was the Eagle Mountain Stake with some of their out of control activist members.
That’s what I was asking about. How are they out of control?
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An 11 year-old girl “comes out” in testimony meeting, and her mike is shut off (purposely waited until the bishop wouldn’t be there. Poor counselors!). She read a prepared statement that wasn’t written by an 11 year-old, her parents record it and put it on social media, and gleeful activists who had come to see it leave noisily with the parents and the girl. Google “savannah’s testimony.”
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Same ward and stake. A divorced woman records her stake president revoking her temple recommend. She obviously was priming him and goading him in an attempt to make him say something embarrassing (in my view, he did just fine). Then, she sends the audio to “MormonLeaks.”
I’m glad I don’t have nutcase activists in my stake. Or my ward.
They are everywhere. Some are more vocal or seeking noteriety. Sometimes for money.