Floyd: (Answers to your last post.)
Floyd:
" Ronald, if this happened, then you are part of the problem… "
Ronald:
I totally admit that I am part of the problem, because I was one in Church that taught to to the younger kids those thing that I had been taught, that decades later, not immediately, but decades later, that this was never gospel. This was only procedure or worse yet, just someone’s opinion that got out of control Church wide, where ever you went. Those opinions were not corrected right away, but instead, it took decades. Why?
Floyd:
You see Brigham Young taught that we should never accept what the brethren say, without getting our own testimony of that issue.
Ron: Good point Floyd. I use to have a strong testimony that all that I learned in Church either came from the DC or the Bible or from the GA’s. But after, on several different issues, we were told decades later, that this was never gospel, it was only procedure, of worse yet, it was just someone’s opinion that spread Church wide, but none the less, was never Gospel. Now, I have adopted the much less happy way of believing, by asking, which book, the DC or the Bible, or both, Book; Which Book within the book? Which chapter and verse? (on issues like the LGBT issues). Nobody has pinned that down for me yet, but if anyone can, I do have faith in you Floyd, that you can and will. Thank you in advance, knowing that it is coming.
Floyd:
I also thing (this is based on my dealing with my 92 yr. old mother and 89 year old mother in law) that back “in the day”, members seemed to be more like sheep follower the leaders, than like today, where people question things. Not sure of the culture, because non of my family at the time were members.
Ron:
I totally agree with you Floyd. We were all like sheep, believing, accepting, having faith and testimony that all that we learned in Church was indeed true without question. (Those were the wonderful years that gave us that fantastic testimony) Now, those of us that are still alive, have very sadly learned that we were foolish. How sad. We have learned that we must question. How sad.
It was much more satisfy that we knew that if anything was not true, we would be told so in short time and not decades later.
Floyd:
But reading and listening to my landlord many years ago (he was a direct descendant of BY through his second wife) the mentality of the saints were more accepting and less questioning. What was a treat for me was that my landlord had “Church” books written by the authorities from between 1900-1940. Most of it is not in print anymore. Learn some interesting things.
Ron: Awe yes, I remember it well. Pearl of Great Price, Added Upon, The First Two Thousand Years, etc, etc, I had them all also. Since then, I have passed them onto my Children. I cherish those books and those times and I cherish the times that the GA’s came into our home to visit with my father in law, when we were getting close to having 2 million members word wide, when the father in law was the Bishop that started the Eastmont ward and the East Los Angeles Stake while being Bishop for 13 years.
With your experience as stated above, you must at least have some empathy for me as you have experience the faith we had back then through the older people of my generation that you talked to.
Not many of us are still alive to tell our story. Perhaps that is good. Perhaps in another very short few years we will all be gone and that will be the end of the story. Be patient.
Where much is given, much is expected.
Back than., we expected that everything that we learned in Church was true and not just procedure or somebodies opinion. We knew, like the Wilshire Sacrament story, that I recently told you about, that if something was not correct, than it would be corrected immediately and not wait for decades later to tell us that it was not correct.
Floyd:
The issue with gay marriage and their lifestyle and the stance the church takes is not because the LBGT is the “New” target as you suggest. The church stance is based on SCRIPTURE found in all four standard works. The gay lifestyle has always been against God’s commandments AND he has always sent his prophet to testify that the lifestyle is against God’s ways…
Ron:
When I asked anyone, (many others), I always get the same answer as you just gave.
My request to each now, is, Please list in the Bible, the many different Books, Chapters and verse telling us that our procedures are correct regarding that LGBT issue. Next, give me all the books, chapters and verse, in the DC that tells us that our procedures in dealing with the LGBAT community is correct.
Next, tell me where I can find the printed message where the GA’s are quoted directly as to the procedure comes from God, regarding the way we handle the LGBT community. If you do not want to post it on this site, I can agree that it may not be appropriate since this is a site for football, but I would like very much the information sent to my email at: [email protected], or, if you would rather post it here, I have no objection at all. If indeed, you can give me the requested information, it may help in keeping my mouth and print quiet and I can quit worrying about what we are doing to these people , but until than, there is an alarming amount of suicides among our LDS LGBT community per capita compared to any other group. If this is just opinion, or if it is just procedure, it is a terrible waste of life. If it is of God, it is almost like we are going back to the old testament days. For the record, there has never been anyone more straight then I am.
Floyd"
What I find interesting is that you talk about Good Germans not standing up to the Nazi’s and yet, you chide the church for standing up against an evil practice (as defined by scripture). Can’t have it both way, dude.
Ron:
I respectfully believe that you are missing the point Floyd. (As I sometimes miss your point), There are good LDS that still believe like we did back in the 30.s 40’s an 50’s, that, as you said in earlier postings, that followed like sheep without questioning. There were those good Germans that did the same. In both cases, they were good people. I am sure that in each case, there may have been not so good people also, but I prefer to keep this as positive as possible. I am in no way defending Germany or their bad actions dealing with the Jews.
Where as the Germans may have spoken up and saved lives, also the LDS may need to speak up and questions until we are sure, with evidence,that which is doctrine, vs that which is procedure, that which is opinion and than proceed from there in all matters that tend to have a very negative affect on others not of our flock.
Floyd:
As for the Germans, Hitler was brilliant, in how he came to power and suckered the people of Germany. Instead of simply “Taking” power, he did as the BOM says “he slowly lead them down the path to hell” by having them focus on other people (it was not just the Jews that were targeted) as the cause of their problems.
Ron:
I totally agree with you. I just don’t want to have any similarities among us.
Floyd:
That is why the Lord has always asked us to verify through study and prayer in dealing with situations in our lives.
Ron:
Again, I totally agree with you and that is what I am trying to do now. I want verification and not just opinion and not just procedure talk, but verification. Thank you again.
Floyd:
One thing you should also remember, the Lord teaches Line upon Line, precept upon precept… It is my belief that the Lord withheld certain things for the simple reason that the people at the time could not handle the doctrine or issue at the time. They had to progress to get to a point for the revelation to be dispensed. The prime example of that was the 76 section of the Doctrine and Covenants… It was revealed in 1832, but was not taught until around 1842 or so… The people were not ready for that doctrine.
Ron: If section 76 DC was revealed in 1832, but not taught until 1842, and that section is indeed, all about the LGBT than I must say that I had never heard it taught before until just before California’s Prop 8 mess. I do not remember that section. is it indeed about the LGBYT community???
Floyd:
I think a lot of your issues stems from a couple of things:
- People seem to accept anything and everything the GA’s spoke as “The word of the Lord” regardless of what was said (Think President Benson personal views on Politics),
- Some things were withheld because the people were not ready for it.
- People are lazy in general and do not want to do there research with verification coming through the spirit.
Ron:
I found 3 of your 4 things,
#1 I totally agree that this is the way it use to be. I totally loved the trust, the testimony, that we use to have put into all that was taught to us. Needing to research to find now if something is Gospel, Procedure or opinion, is not nearly as fulfilling, but now, unfortunately, it is needed. #2 I find that hard to believe. God did not withhold the Human Sacrifices advocated in the old testimony. Why would he withhold much lesser things? #3 I do agree that at least in part. I am very guilty, not because I don’t like to do research, I do a lot of it, however, the research which you are talking about does not seem, at the time, to be as urgent, as the other type of research that I am doing at the time. #4, Floyd, I could not find your #4. Sorry.
Floyd:
I like what Sundance said " A lot of history was oral history, passed down through the years.
Ron: Was this referring to Folklore?
Floyd:
The question is “was the Joseph Smith Vision real and were Oliver and Joseph given the priesthood by divine authority through ancient apostles.”
Ron: This has not come into question; The question now, that never use to be, is “are all demands that we put onto others, Gospel, Procedure, or Opinion,” and can we back it up in writing from the Bible and/or the DC? If so, name the book. Name the book within the book and give chapter and verse, Otherwise, we may be guilty of what you suggested way above in your posting.
Floyd:
What really matters:
Was Joseph Smith a Prophet?
Is the Restored Church on the earth?
Is the Book of Mormon the word of God?
Ron:, Those things in print, and deemed in print to be Gospel, I do still believe in. That is not the issue.
The issue are those things not in print that we are not sure if it is doctrine, procedure of opinion.
Floyd:
Everything is “fluff” and the Lord will deal with it in his time and in his ways…
Ron" Everything is fluff if you were not Latino back than or Black back then or part of the LGBT community now. If you are or have been, these issues are far more than just fluff.
I continue to thank you Floyd for all of your information and for all the good that you do in the different various Church organizations. I thank you for your testimony and for all the good that you do. I thank you for continuing to be the defender of the faith. You are indeed a good man and I do respect you. I hope that our differences of opinion, do not keep us from being friends. I do need your support.
I think that most changes that were made in the Church, were for the Good. I do wish the Church would have accepted the responsibility either for making the changes, or for waiting decades before making the changes. I think that the GA investors in the Coca Cola Company would have been much more sensitive if they would have waited just a few more years, until we die, that were taught, that Coke was just as bad as coffee and tea, and that the only reason it is not in print, is that the company was not around when the Word of Wisdom was put in print.
Of cours not. Why should you find this in print? This is not doctrine. This is life experience
Ron