The Systematic Unraveling of BYU Sports Since The Glory Years Of The Late1970’s And 80’s

Good stuff, Floyd.

Floyd,

Are you being kind, or honest?

I am sure that I do not have all the facts that you do. What I do have is the experience of having lived during the time that certain things were taught, as though it was gospel only to find 20 years later, that it was only someone’s opinion that spread though out the Church, that was never corrected until 20 years later with the explanation that it was never gospel.

Yes, I am very much aware of the not too hot and also, not to cold drinks in our body. Room temperature is best. The same could be said about food.

I grew up in a family where my father in law was Bishop, not for the traditional 4 years approximately, but 13 years. He was the first Bishop of the Eastmont Ward and the First Bishop that started the East Los Angeles State. Some of my brother in laws were all in the Bishopric. I was in the Elders Quorum Presidency, My son in law was a Bishop. The main conversation in the home all the hours that we were awake and not distracted by the need to go to work, or Church, was the teachings of the Gospel.

Many changes has taken place since the middle 40’s and 50’s. Most of the changes were things that many years later, we were told that it was only someone’s opinion that had been taught throughout the Church, but it was never doctrine.

It makes one wonder, do we believe that only the DC, the BM, or the Pearl of Great Price is doctrine, or do we include the Bible?

When we hear something in Church, do we need to fact check it, to see if it can actual be found in one of the books mentioned above, or can we depend on it being doctrine? Should we limit only that which can be found in the DC as gospel? Can we no longer depend on what we learn in Church be doctrine, which years later, can be subject to change unless we first fact check it?

When I was a kid, it was taught that we were the only True Church of the face of the earth. We still do teach this, but it was much, much, much more intense than.

Our biggest criticism of the Catholic Church at that time, was that they had a Pope that thought he was infallible. At that time, we preached that nobody except God was infallible. Now we as members believe that all of our GA’s are infallible.

Last year, one of our GA’s told us in Conference, that GA’s are not GA’s in all things. All things that they say or do, is not because of any form of divine intervention, however, we as members believe that they are.

I remember when just a few years before the Los Angeles Temple was opened, in the early 1950’s, the Wilshire Ward, which was very beautiful and expense, decided to make the sacrament table very special.

There was an electric curtain that went around the Sacrament Table. There were spot lights coming from the ceiling to spot light the table.

There was special dramatic music, and just at the right time, (It was really spectacular), the curtain opened and the Priest asked God for the sacrament blessing and the deacons passed it to the membership. It was beautiful and it was dramatic and impressive.

Almost immediately, as soon as the GA’s heard about it. The practice was stopped. “This is not who we are” “This is not what we are”. It may have been a disappointment to some at the time, but the decision was swift, and final, and it was respected. Nobody waited 20 years to tell us that he had to be changed.

I am for change when it is for the good, and responsibility is accepted for the change. Denial of responsibility is hard for me to take. 20 years, with GA’s presiding in Stake conferences where things that were taught, and never corrected, were said to be not doctrine 20 years later,was hard for me.

Today is June 26th. 36 more days, August 1st starts Fall Practice. Our starting QB has not yet been chosen. Many are called, but few are chosen. 32 days later we will be in Tucson, Arizona facing the Wild Cats. One thing we can all agree on, without judging each other, is that this 15 point underdog team of ours must pull of a huge upset and defeat those Wildcats. Next, with a victory under our wings, we must fly home to show the Bears that we mean business and that we are focused. 2018 season will be better than most expect. It has to be.

Go Cougars.

well said.

Honest and Kind, I am just finding out the older I get that even though I believe things, because of my experiences, there might be more information than I am aware of that could change my view on things if I knew them.

Hope you did not take as a derogatory comment, I just getting to the point that I realize what I believe may be different than I thought. Working at the Temple has given me this new perspective.

Floyd,

Regarding, “Now that they have opened the door a little more, now it seems that there was never any doctrine behind the ban.” (Black man not being able to hold the Priesthood) I agree.

As far as I can find, the first evidence was that Brigham Young, (Not Joseph Smith), was the first to be against the Blacks holding the Priesthood. He was afraid of the Black Race and the White race intermingling and coming up with a grey race, so to speak. That feeling was later cemented by the actions of Joseph Fielding Smith. And like you, I can find no evidence of any doctrine that states they the black could not hold the Priesthood.

One of my concerns, ( not wanting to hurt the church, but instead, wanting the church to keep from getting hurt), is that we are headed in a direction of needing to fact check everything we see and hear in the Church and to me that is very sad. I want transparency. I want someone to say, hey, this that we have been doing is wrong. We can find no evidence why we should continue doing that which is wrong. Now the we are aware that it is wrong, we must change. No problem with me on this type of action. Change is good when it is for the good of all, and responsibility is accepted not only for the change, but for the actions that needed the change.

I really feel that accepting responsibility for the things that need changing is much less painful than having to Fact Check and question all that is said and done in the Church.

Our Cougars first game, vs. Arizona in Tucson, 9/1/18 @7:45 P.M. and to be seen on ESPN TV, is just
36 days from now.

Go Cougars!

Actually, I have done a little research on this, this is not “Doctrine”, but rather my observation from my research. Brigham Young was trying to get Utah admitted as a State as far back as 1850. If you remember your American History, there were two acts that determined if a State had Slavery or not (Missouri Compromise 1820, 1854 Kansas-Nebraska). I believe leading up to the Civil War, Congress was trying to appease the southern states in having a equal balances in the states between Slave states and free states.

I believe Brigham Young was quite the politician and tried to get Utah in as a free state, thus outlawing Slavery in Utah, which did not set well with the saints who came from the south with their slaves. I am not sure the “Why” Brigham Young choose to do what he did, but I think it had everything to do with becoming a state as soon as possible.

Again these are my observations and nothing founded in concrete, just my rationalization for events that has happened. I personal opinion, which some may not like is “I really do not care why Brigham Young restricted the Priesthood, it has no bearing on my eternal salvation, The Lord knows, the Lord will judge righteously, why do I need to worry about it then?”

Floyd,

Of your three paragraphs, I really do like the first two very much, It was full of objective information which I appreciate and respect. Thank you.

Abraham Lincoln stated, in regards to the civil war, " I don’t give a ■■■■ if the
South has or has not slaves. I don’t give a ■■■■ if the north has or has not slaves. I don’t care if the non committed states in the West votes for slave or no slaves. What I do give a ■■■■ about, is that we all stay United as the United States and I will fight to that end; to that resolve, —and he did.

I really don’t think that statehood admission had anything to do with it. I think that Lincoln settled that before going into the great civil war.

DevMo,

I CAUTIOUSLY BELIEVE THAT We are on the same page.

I love all that is good and holy and right in our Church which is much.

Because sometimes THAT WHICH we believe to be doctrine, but find out 20 years later that it is only procedure, I become more like the President from Missouri, Harry S. Truman, that said, " I am from Missouri, you have to show me".

Because, according to at least one GA, all that comes out of the mouth of a GA is not gospel or inspired by divine guidance, I find myself now asking, is this Gospel or is it procedure. That GA said " Some mistakes are made. and because that GA told us that GA;s are not GAs in all things, and that in some things we need an authority for, we need to seek expert guidance in that area. I now find, that where as I use rubber stamped as validation for all told to us, I now, cautiously or sometimes, not as cautious as I should be, find myself questioning, where is the doctrine that says what we are doing is correct.

I grew up in the time we were taught about the War in Heaven but 20 years later, was told by a GA in Stake Conference that it was never doctrine but only someone’s opinion. During that same time, we were taught that coke was against the word of wisdom and the only reason that it is not in the print is because it had not yet been developed at time of print. It is not the drink that is sinful, but the caffeine that is in the coke like coffee and tea. Now that some of the GA’s hold stock in the company, it is no longer a big deal to drink coke.

So the question is, Have I lost my testimony? I don’t think so, but I no longer rubber stamp my approval on all that the Church does. I still love the Church.

I find that many of the changes, have been definitely for the good.
It is not the change that offends me.
It is the lack of responsibility for the change that destroys a part of what I once believed in without any question.

I am totally for the change made in 1978, but I think that the change should not have been necessary in the first place, if the segregation from first class citizens had never happened.

Joseph Smith once ran for President of the United States. His platform was to round up all blacks and send them to Africa, tax paid, one way transportation. It did not seem God inspired to me, especially since many of those Blacks were born and raised here and where’d never been in Africa, and had no citizenship in any country in Africa,

We sometimes forget that they did not come for a vacation, and liked it so much they decided to stay. We all know how and why they came here.

Brigham Young didn’t want Blacks in the Church because they might mingle with the whites and have mixed race children.

Joseph Fielding Smith, (We have a field house named in his honor on campus), did much to keep the Blacks out of the Church.

Many things were blamed for this bias against the Blacks, starting with the War in Heaven, which we now deny.

Next for a very short time, it was Cane and Able Syndrome, which we now deny.

Next it was just one of the Mysteries that we don’t understand until finally 1978 came.

I have never had faith that any of this was true, I never believed that God was bias agains a whole race of his own creation.

I guess that make me a bad guy. I never believed that which we did in the 40’s and 50’s to the Latino members making them go to a Mexican Branch many miles away, rather than allow them in our white wards. I never believed that to be God inspired.

I have a very hard time with our current attack vs.the LGBT community. (I am as straight as an arrow). We tell everyone how much we do for the LGBT to protect their rights, but only Utah Mormons believe this after Pro 8 in California.

Too many outsiders, see too many suicides, among the LDS LGBT community.

I still love the Church.
I am not perfect, but my children still love me.
The Church is not perfect, but I still love the Church.

fish,

Honesty is the best policy, weather we win or lose by it. Being kind, if not honest, could be a curse.

Ron

John Brady,

I agee with you. Much of what Floyd writes is good stuff, We use to agree much more than we do now, but even when we do not agree, which lately seems more often than not, i still like his writings and I learn much from him.

Ron

Floyd,

You need to read the history related to the Platform of Joseph Smith, when he ran for President of the United States of America.

Ron

John Brady,

If I understand you correctly, and I think I do, than I totally agree with you.

“May I gently remind you, that it is very good to speak up when you feel things needs to be said, but remember, you are only looking through “your eyes” and not necessarily having all the facts that may or may not change your views.” Floyd writes a lot of good stuff. I like the guy. Is he a Bishop???n I have learned from his writing on this site, that Floyd is a good man.

Ron

Floyd,

The explanations for what and why, we did or did not do, certain things, as explained now, is totally different than the way it was explained in the 30’s, 40’and up to the late middle 50’s.

From the late middle 50’s, to preset, it was like being in totally different Church.

Part of that is good and part of that is not so good, but the worse part is the lack of acceptance of responsibility for not stopping non doctrine practices being taught as doctrine until 20 years later in my life time, and I don’t know how much earlier before my lifetime.

Most changes have been for the good. The over simplification of why the changes were necessary did damage to my Psychi.

Floyd,

I truly believe that President Kimble was a great man and a man of God. I loved the man. What he did took more courage than any President of the Church before him in regards to the Black man issue…

He knew in his heart that it was bad policy with no doctrine to back it up. He did what was right and he let the consequence follow. The consequence was a good thing.

Last year, we had another GA that did a very brave thing that some have used against him. In some of my writings, it may sound that I use it against it, but that is not my intent. My intent is show his acknowledgement that all that comes out of a GA’s month is not gospel; Not all is divinely inspired, Not all, is anything but opinion, yet, even after his brave, but needed good enlightening remarks, we all seem to take everything we hear from a GA as Gospel. That is dangerous in my opinion. I believe that if we see policy that does not seem Christ Like to us, we have the responsibility to question if the policy is doctrine or just procedure. If it is said to be doctrine, we need to ask for chapter and verse and read carefully if we are translating correctly that which we have been taught. I liked it much better the old way where we just accepted everything that we were taught in Church, but 83 years of experience has taught me that this just doesn’t work anymore.

DevMo,

In the high school that I was a department head for most of 32 years, our school psychologist was a Gay man. Our Principal was a Lesbian. One of our PE teachers and Health teacher was a Lesbian that was awarded the title of National Teacher of the year. Her lover worked in the District Office. They have now been together for over 40 years and have a home together in Big Bear, Ca.

All in all, from our faculty of about 120 teachers, we had 12 that were Lesbian or Gay. These people were among the best educated, the most respected in our community, and among the most compassionate and good for our students that we could find anywhere.

I got to know all of them quite well over the 32 years that I was in the district. Each of them told me at one time or another, that at some time in each of their lives, to please their family, their church, their friends, and their community, they tried so very hard to be straight. The result was that they were just as repulsed by having anything to do sexually with the opposite sex as we would be trying to have sex with another straight counterpart. It just didn’t work. Love your sister.

After all of these years from Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph Fielding Smith and President Kimble in 1978, there has been no scripture evidence that we should have been biased against the Blacks and finally, President Kimble started to motion to put that prejudice behind us.

I am not sure, as I lost contact with those that I use to know, when we stopped making Latio’s go to Latino Branches to keep them out of our white Wards. But thank goodness that practice has changed also.

I have confidence that in a short time, it will be found that there are far more commandments in the Bible that we do not follow than there are against those of the LGBT community.

Judge not, lest ye be judged;
Do onto others that which ye would have them do onto you.
Leave all Judging to God.
We are all brothers and sisters.
Love thy neighbor as ye love thy self.
Love ye, one another.
We are all Children of God, it is he that made us, and not we ourselves.
Blessed are the poor.
God is our Creator. He created all of us. etc. etc

The Pope said in the last year or two, “I am not changing doctrine” The doctrine stays the same. What I am changing is the importance of that which we concentrate on now." We have been spending far too much time on the issue of women’s right to Choose and the LGBT community. We need to put those things on the back burner and now concentrate on the more important issues like feeding the hungry and housing the homeless and learning how to communicate, understand, and live peacefully with all of our brothers and sisters through the world.

I think we could learn some valuable lessons from this Pope.

Ron

Jim Hawks,

Thank you for your very polite and respectful disagreement. If we all had the communication skills that you display, we could all learn more from each other. Thank you.

Ron

Floyd, I totally agree with you in this post with each and every word, Even though we disagree on more issues than we agree on, I really like your postings full of good information, which I learn from and appreciate very much. I do hope that you never see me as the enemy, as I am not. I would like to be your friend perhaps like one friend to the left of the Isle with another friend to the right of the Isle, but hopefully both close to the isle, at least for communication purposes.

Ron

Ron-the fact is that we make life too complicated. Treat everyone with courtesy and equitability-especially those we disagree with, because those are the most difficult to respond to. You do well in this respect. Henry B Eyring’s father used to have debates with Joseph F Smith about evolution. Both were set in their own beliefs, but were still best of friends. Presidents of the church have expressed opinions about such mundane topics such as hunting, or whether man would ever walk on the moon and in some cases have been pointedly wrong. We should probably simplify our lives by concerning ourselves with our personal integrity and how we treat other people, because this is ultimately what God’s law hangs on. Some people will become so boorish, that it is difficult not to respond, but silence often is the only silencer. Ultimately God will answer all questions in the universe, but for now let us be concerned with our own integrity and how we treat others. You have lived a long life-i am sure you have gleaned a lot of wisdom in the course of dealing with life. Sports is an outlet to allow us to have some fun and relieve the stress that accumulates in the course of our existence. It is neither a beginning or an end-just a diversion, but like everything else, it can be taken to extremes and become unhealthy for fan and participant alike. You are a good man-i would be proud to call you a Brother

I have read his platform… I have also studied American History (way to much if you ask my wife) to the extreme, I studied the LDS church History from both sides (Non LDS (I was not born into the church) and LDS).

So I am not sure what you want me to learn from the Platform… Joseph Smith wanted to abolish Slavery, by paying the owners of the slaves money to compensate them. This is a novel idea for the time in American History.

What I am not sure you knew, is that Joseph Smith prior to running for President was ANTI-abolitionist.

Again, not sure what you want me to learn from the platform.

I will say this Ronald, because of my love for American History, and studying the church history as I did, I believe that is why the things that bothers you now about church history and “doctrine”, never bothered me because I knew a lot of this a long time ago. It has been out there for years, yet members are surprised when it comes out.

See because of this love of history and also having family members who live in the deep south, I feel like I can look at a time in history and understand “why” things were done the way they were.

I love the quote from Joseph himself when he basically said “I am a prophet of God when the spirit of the Lord is upon me, the rest of the time I am a man, and will make many mistakes”.

Until the day that I can say that I “have no sin” in my life, I will not judge the CURRENT brethren, nor those that have passed on for their comments or actions. Who am I to judge? I do not have the full picture, but the Lord does, In HIM, I trust that he will make all things right. Until then, I will just try to be the best Floyd Edwards I can be.

Ronald, I do not think you knew how President Kimball felt about this issue, I think you are projecting your view on this him.

His direct quote: "I have given it a great deal of thought, a great deal of prayer. The day might come when they would be given the priesthood, but that day has not come yet. Should the day come it will be a matter of revelation. Before changing any important policy, it has to be through a revelation from the Lord.”

He knew this was a policy, not a doctrine, he also knew the Lord would have to approve the change.

In 1975 President Kimball referred to his counselors various statements by early Church leaders about blacks and the priesthood and asked for their reactions. …He asked the Apostles to join him as colleagues in extended study and supplication.

As any good Prophet in our dispensation, he did not do this in a vacuum, he had others to pray and meditate on this issue and then work together to come to a determination of what should be done.

Here is what I think you and other members tend to forget sometimes: “Since the beginning of this church in 1820, the prophets and apostles have told us that while they are called of God to do his work, they are still human beings and prone to make mistakes (even in church dealings).”

Because of my love of history, I have delved into some individual’s personal histories. I look at all the crap that the early saints had to endure, that the US government would not protect them from the brutality of others. Hell, they had to leave the country just to find peace for a short time only to have the US Army invade Utah, set a cannon at Fort Douglas aimed directly at the Tabernacle as a reminder of “Who” was in charge.

People tend to white wash their histories, you and I do it, so does everyone else. Why would the church not do the same?

I don’t know all the answers to the various things that have come out about the LDS Church History, what I do know? Is that the “Lord is in Control”, as long as I know that, none of this stuff bothers me, because I like said before, I am where the Lord wants me to be at this time.

I ask you once what side are you on? Your answer kind of surprised me, You did not say “I am on the Lord side”, but rather what you feel is fair and right.

I am squarely on the Lord side, I will trust in him, he knows all the answers to these questions, but to be honest, not one of them will have an affect on my eternal salvation, UNLESS, I allow it to have an affect.

Not sure what else can be said… The church is not perfect, because it is has human beings running it, The Gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect, because it administered by Christ. Once I was able to separate the two, things became a lot more clear to me.