That’s Phil Odle, not Idle. Phil was a San Diego Marine as was Casey Boyette.
You would be six months older than my dad would be… Unfortunately, I lost him in 2001 due to cancer (down winder).
Hi Floyd,
Your dad and I experienced the Great Depression and the rationing of World War 2 years.
We, your dad and I, experienced the black outs, the bomb shelters, the bomb drills. We remember the day that our President of the United States died while the great war was still raging on. We remember that the vice president had to take over that great war and as we know, he soon put an end to it by using the atomic bomb on Japan, not once but twice. We know that the fall of Germany came shortly afterwards. We came out of that war, as the most powerful nation in the world, and the richest nation in the world, and we became the country with the most world control with our money and political might. In those days, President Truman, took responsibility for anything that went wrong with anyone in his cabinet. He said, “I am the boss. The Buck Stops Here” What a change from today.
We witnessed one of the greatest period of social change from the Fabulous 50’s to the very, very, very, Creative, but status quo challenging, drug abuse era, democracy threatening, War protesting, sexually exploring, political unrest periods, and racial unrest of our times in the 1960’s. (The Black Panthers), (The Patty Hurst part in the Symbianease Army),(sp). (Make love, not war), (Burn your draft card), (Fish is a 4 letter word that stars with F), (Bank of America’s burning) (Down with Chevrolet’s and Mom’s home made apple pie) Hayte Ashberry district in San Francisco, where new arrivals came with flowers in their hair, drugs in the bodies, and many souls were lost during their times of communal living and free sex. You’re dad and I witnessed a lot.
In California, we witnessed the “Burn Baby Burn” era, The Watts Riots, where we were told that the Blacks will not wait another 200 years for equality. They meant what they said. The quite peace treaty that followed; The less quiet Warren Report, which ushered in the era of, (not quiet at all), Affirmative Action.
As a result, of the Affirmative Action, we saw integrated neighborhoods for the first time.We saw great changes in the movies, ( from being the dumb educated crop pickers, to the Chief of Police, etc_), To the news Anchors, television programs stars, and in the introduction of the Black population in the educational world, turning out students with Master Degrees and PhD’s that become the leaders in their field.
We watched the Church grow, during our life time, from less than 2 million to nearly 17 million today.
We watched changes that were taught in the Church , ( be they Church sanctioned or not, they were taught), that changed much from what the teachings are today,
We were reminded of the prophesy that the streets of Salt Lake City would run with blood.
(Church sanctioned or not, but one way or another they are being taught). Ref. War in heaven; Cane/Able,
C ur s e d with a black skin, One of the Mysteries that we don’t know, but all things will be known in the life hereafter, to 1978, to branches for Latinos, to now the LGBT issues.
Early days, there were no cokes allowed, but no mention of the LGBT issues. Today, Cokes are allowed and the LGBT issues are prominent. It seems like at times, that the only thing that is constant, is change.
I would have like to have known your father. I would have liked to have been able to compare notes with him.
I am happy to get to know you. I hope that we can find enough common ground to be friends. Ron
Lol can’t believe I misspelled it-thanks
My dad experienced all those things through life with the exception of the Church items… he was never a member of any religion (religion is a crutch for the weak minded, he would tell me). When I joined the church, he stopped saying that!
My dad grew up in a small town of Milford, Utah which is about 40 miles east of Beaver, Utah. Small railroad town with lots of open desert to play in. My grandfather taught him to hunt and fish in the mountains around Milford and Beaver.
He was a down winder (although there was no way to prove it), who with his next younger brother died of cancer way shorter than he was suppose to go (age 65).
My dad often marveled that we could put a man on the moon, that we go from one side of the country to the other in a matter of a few hours. He loved history, he loved learning about how the brave men defended our country during WWII. He respected this country for the freedoms we all enjoyed and hated it when people disrespected the flag.
But most of all my dad loved fixing cars engines, he learned on his own how it all fit together in a nice little package, just so he could tear all apart and put it back together.
What my dad taught me most was helping others, no matter how inconvenient it was (often in the middle of the night) and then refusing praise or reward for helping out one of my mothers single parent friends.
He taught me more about service than the church ever has.
Your dad and my father would have sized each other with one look and formed lifetime friendships. My father is still talked about today after his death from a heart attack 7 years ago. He always stopped to help others. He could fix or rebuild anything and he raised 6 kids to graduate from college although he never did get to finish. Every fall I head to the mtns. I stop at his favorite rock in Idaho where I shot my first deer as a 12 year old. I have a chat…more like a self evaluation.
Those were the days. Cars use to be built so that any high school student could go under the hood, remove the carburetor, take it to the auto shop, have it tested, and if needed, take a new replace home and screw it back on where the old one was. Same is true about any part of those old cars. Often, we just needed to boil out the carburetor without replacing it. Most parts had simple remedies without replacement. Later came the computerized engines that now requires the factory maintenance that finds the problems on a computerized diagnostic machine.
During the days of pencils with erasers, life was much simpler. We use to dial information and get a live operator. Once I asked for Bessey May Moore and the operator told me that she didn’t have a phone but If I could hold on for ten minutes, she would run to Bessie’s house and bring her to the office and i could talk to her on their phone. Now we punch far too many buttons to talk to one robot or another.
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Floyd,
I would have liked your father. I was with the occupational forces that controlled Germany for the ten year
period following World War 2. Yes, our generation, living through the Great Depression learned the lesson
first handed bout helping your neighbor when in need. I have heard often, in your dad’s and my generation,
" Religion is a rutch for weak minded people" But surprisingly, these people were the most Christ Like, as
far as doing onto others as we would have others do onto us. We believed deeply that as we sew, so shall
we reap. We prayed in the closet, but was reluctant to pray in public. We loved God, Trusted God,
Respected God, Feared God, and believed that God was a Fair and Just God, but only those that knew us
very best, knew how close to God we really felt.
Ron
Ron, I read through your post and reactions to it this morning. What struck me was the parallels between the church as a whole and the football team. The reality is that if you take out natural growth from birthrates, the church is not growing much at all. We have long known that being baptised doesn’t equate to being active. As someone who studied and taught human geography, I always looked forward to the demographic numbers reported in conference conference. Last conference it wasn’t announced and we were instead referred to the website. This tells me that our growth is nothing to be proud of.
I was told once by my grandmother that everyone who stepped into her home was family and that she loved each and every one of them. When the church began its political involvement against lgtbq marriage, I had to come to grips with an issue I struggled with. Do I love like my grandmother, or be a supportive church member? I figured I would rather be judged on love and compassion over supporting the church’s stance. I sat and listened for years at the horrible things people would say in gospel doctrine and priesthood. These are honestly good people who would support anything the church wants them to. At the same time, I relished that my sister asked me to walk her down the aisle as she married her loving wife.
BYU will have some good years, but eventually the declining membership will have an effect its athletic programs. I talked with a gentleman at work a few years ago about organized religions. He made the comment that the big issue is that large churches often change 2 generations to late since they are usually led by people whose philosophies were formed 50 years ago. Our church will either look very different in 50 years or will be in severe decline.
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This looks at it from a purely sociological/anthropological, “on paper” standpoint. There is a third option: the Church’s numbers will decline, but its core strength will increase. Call it the “Gideon’s Army” effect. During the 1980s and 1990s, people got all caught up with Rodney Stark’s projections that membership would number 100 million by 2060. More numbers does not equal strong activity, and may, in fact, hinder activity for many people. Retention has always been an issue, but I think this is true even in New Testament times (many of Jesus’ parables have a bearing on this; e.g., the sower).
With the slew of recent social issues affecting the Church (gay marriage, homosexuality as a sin, women ordination, agitation for full condemnation of the priesthood ban, etc.), the Church is shedding some members, but I would argue that this “strengthens the herd.” Church members being faced with stark choices has even been prophesied, and is to be expected.
There is also a really good explanation for declining baptisms that nobody seems to be considering: we increasingly don’t do missionary work in the traditional sense. The missionary program has changed from focusing on finding, teaching, and baptizing, to a “keep them active and connected” program for young adults. Many of the recent changes (lowered age, attempts to shield from adversity and negative experiences, having missionaries hang around the church on devices more, life competency training, post-mission follow-up program, etc.) all indicate that the primary consideration right now is trying to stop the hemorrhaging of young people, and not finding, teaching and baptizing. It really is no wonder that we find and baptize less. That has become a secondary consideration (I believe that reverting back to traditional missionary work and getting away from this coddling approach would actually improve activity and commitment more than the coddling, and lead to more baptisms).
Devin,
While I understand most of what you are saying, I also have to remind you that Brigham Young once prophesied that there would be a great purge within the church (I heard about 50% of church membership would be excommunicated) in the last days.
The size of the church is not that important to me, It is the feelings (spirit whispering) I receive when I hear what the brethren are saying that is more important to me. I have never really been one who focuses on others in the church, if I had, I would never have joined the church in the first place. People are human (Yes, even the brethren according to Elder Uchtdorf) and will make mistakes.
I think the church made a mistake in “How” they went about the LBGT issue, not necessarily the “WHY”. I believe, and this is pure conjecture on my part, that the Church realized they handled the issue poorly and has since rectified some the problems.
Look what they did here in Utah where they helped the LBGT community get “Legal” rights, while helping protect religious rights. It is now something the other states are studying to solve their issues with Gay Marriage.
Now before some people flame me for saying the brethren made a mistake, may I remind people of a quote Brigham Young once said
“The world is drunk, but not with wine or strong drink, and our country (the USA) is the most drunken of all. They are deluding themselves; they are drunk with party fanaticism; they are high-minded, heady, and senseless, and are fast going to destruction. JD 10:320”
This was written shortly before the Civil War. But remember that in many prophecies there is the concept of DUALISM. Right now this is an excellent description of the USA today. There is a lot of fanaticism in both the Republican and Democratic parties. I would also say this could also include members of our church and their attitudes about others who do not believe as we do.
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Thanks for the quote-didn’t know that one, but it shows what insight Young had
DevMo
I love the song, “Do what is right and let the consequences follow”
I do not always believe that some of our choices, procedures, or interpretations of our choices and/or procedures are correct. During those times, I do, and I believe, and I act, the way I believe is right.
I am grateful for those times that (what I believe) is right corresponds with what we teach and what we learn.
Other times I suffer some guilt and the guilt is the consequence for doing and believing that which I believe is right.
Basically I believe that we should judge not, lest we be judged and that we should leave all judging to God. I believe that God Created all of us and all that he creates is good.
I believe that we should be all inclusive with no second class members so to speak. I believe that with what we have in the Church, We would be far better off if we were non political and non judgmental of our members of the Church and of our members of society at large.
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DevMo
I enjoyed your posting. I believe what you said. And like you, I have taught school for many years.
In college, my subjects were Interaction Analysis and Basic Encounters, from the Humanities Department.
In High School, I worked with the Special Ed Department , (Department Head), dealing with all that had special needs.
Other than those mentioned, I taught every grade from the 3rd grade though the 8th grade in core regular classes, including, but not limited to home teaching.
I have also taught the GATE.
Over 32 years of teaching I have worked with the most gifted and in well to do neighborhoods, and with the most severely challenged and in the poorest neighborhoods. I remained in the same school district for all of those years while college was an extra pay job.
What I have learned most during those years, is how much I do not know about the true needs of
others. I have not yet learned how to deal with them in an acceptable manner. When I speak the truth of how I really feel, I suffer gilt that perhaps, how I really feel is not acceptable behavior, yet modification of that unacceptable behavior may seem to me, to be hypocritical.
I lived in Germany with the Occupational Forces during 2 of those 10 years that we occupied the country following WW2.
I lived with and among some of the German, (Deutch), families that lived and suffered during that war. I asked many of them about Hitler and the Holocaust.
They said that Hitler was not always bad. They said that he did much good for the country. They said that Hitler gave them the world’ first freeways. Hitler put a Volts Wagon in almost ever home. He was not the monster, that people said he was in the beginning.
When I asked about the Holocaust, they gasped !!!
"At first, we had no idea what was happening. “When we started seeing our neighbors on our street disappearing, we started noticing that everyone that was disappearing were actually Jews”.
"Once we starting putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 4’s, we were so frightened to say or to ask anything. "We were afraid that if we did say anything we could be among those that were missing. “Nobody could understand how terrifying it was to think that we would question the Furor”.
DevMo, this has had a great affect on my life. The numbers differ depending on where the numbers come from, but lets say, for this discussion, the number is 5 million Jews that lost their lives because people were afraid to speak up and/or to question their leadership.
Yes there is a world of difference between a Furor, a Dictator, A President, a King or Queen, and
a General Authority. But once last year, one of our General Authorities said in a conference that
“We General Authorities, are not authorities in all things, and some of those things that you need answers to, should be asked of an authority in that field.”
(Wow! Did I ever butcher that quote)
I tried, (poorly), to paraphrase what the GA said the best I could. You remember better than I, the best quote to be spoken.
My point is this. Over the years that I have been involved in the church since 1945, 73 years ago, I have seen many changes. Some of the changes have been very good. The reasons for the changes has sometimes been a challenge for me.
One of the great changes that came about from when it was taught in every Ward, in every Stake, in each State that I attended as a member or as a visitor, including in the cities of East
Los Angeles, Montebello, Downey, Whittier, all of which are in California, and in Mesa Arizona, and in Saint George, Provo and Salt Lake City in Utah, that there was a War in Heaven. Making the long story as short as possible, 1/3 of the heavenly population took the side of Jesus and they were blessed to come to earth with a white skin and receive the blessings of the Priesthood.
1/3 of that population, took the side of Jesus brother, Satin, and they were not allowed to take a body nor were they allowed to hold the priesthood, but instead, they were only allowed to come as evil spirits to tempt us to do evil things so that the plan of jesus would fail.
The other 1/3 of the population in heaven were the fence sitters. They would not choose sides. Because they did not choose the side of Satin, they were allowed to come to earth and receive a body. But because they did not choose the side of Jesus, they were cursed with a Black Skin and they could not hold the Priesthood.
During Stake Conferences, there were often a GA presiding in attendance. When the War in heaven was mentioned at Stake conferences, nobody said it was not true.
Yet, sometime in late 1956 or early 1957, a GA in a Stake conference said that this was never doctrine. It was only somebodies idea that spread through out the Church, but was un- authorized by the Church, When asked of the GA why the blacks could not hold the Priesthood, the answer was that it was the Cane and Able thing that caused those people to be cursed with the black skin and not be able to hold the Priesthood.
The next Stake Conference we had a different GA. That different GA said that it was NOT the
Cane and Able thing that caused those people to be cursed with the black skin, and not be able to hold the priesthood, but instead, it was just one of those mysteries that we don’t understand, but that all things will be known unto us in the life hereafter.
Next, in 1978, The President said that now is the time for all worthy male members to hold the Priesthood. When the Press, asked the President if God appeared to him, or if he had a vision, or a dream, about the change of policy regarding Blacks now being able to hold the Priesthood, the President said that it just came to him that now is the time. Now we say it was a revelation.
During those early years that I refer to, if you were a Latino, you had to go to a Mexican branch.
You could not attend the White Ward, I recall one family of Mexican decent that was born in the USA, spoke only English, and the only culture they knew, was the USA culture having been born here, raised here, and attended all our our schools here and have never been inside the country of Mexico, yet still, they had to attend the Ditman Branch for Mexicans, far away across town, instead of attending our white ward next door. Gratefully, that was a good change when they were allowed to attend our Wards.
Now, it is the LGBT community that we find not as good as us. It seems to be the same story over and over and over again with the only difference being our targets, be they the Black, or the Latino, or the LGBT community. Hopefully that too will soon change. At age 83, I am running out of time.
Another change, which the Church now says was never doctrine or never against the Word of Wisdom, was when I was ordained first a Deacon, than aTeacher, than Priest, and finally a new ordained Elder, back in those days, we were never allowed to drink a coke. It was said to have as much or more caffein as coffee or tea and the only reason that it was not mentioned in the Word of Wisdom was because Coke had not yet been discovered as a popular drink when the word of wisdom was given to us.
Later, at a Religious Retreat in 1955, A GA told us that we owned a good share of the Coke company and many halls at BYU had coke machines in it’s halls. The couple thousand of us in attendance, in Bavaria, were outraged. The cry for change was so great, that the shares in the company were either sold, or hidden and all coke machines left our University until a year or two ago, when it is now explained to us that Coke is okay. It was never against our policy. Many thought it was, but it really never was against Church policy. Hey, I am okay with the change. it is the lack of responsibility for the change that is a challenge for me.
So why am I talking so much about seemingly nothing???
It’s because I feel a need to not keep my mouth shut like the early Germans I spoke about. I feel a need to say, “Do what is right and let the consequence follow,” I need to say,
“Judge not, lest ye be judged” “Do onto others, as ye would have others do onto you” Love thy neighbor" and my own saying is : there is good and not so good in each and everyone of us.
Spend the time finding the good in us and don’t waste time looking for the not so good in us. Learn to get along with everyone and not just with those sheep of our own flock. Jesus had other flocks to be respected also.
I disagree with this assessment. Yes, there have been problems in the past but in today’s church, I don’t think this is an issue. The eternal nature of the family is the focus and priority. I think you are over stating what is going on and making a comparison that is unwarranted. I do respect your opinion and perspective but I don’t think it is accurate.
Jim Hawks,
I do appreciate the respectful and appropriate manner in which you disagreed with me. Thank you.
My intention is not to bring bad feelings, but to encourage all of us to modify our behavior, as to not bring about bad feelings.
I, unintentionally, offend many people, because my messages are NOT heard as a plea for all of us to try harder to do what is right. Instead, my messages are heard as an attempt to criticize, or offend, which is not my intent, but I am not a good communicator, and therefor, I do, unintentionally, offend. I do apologize.
It is a fact, that they, the (Church, and the the Church owned University), which you and I each love, respect, and defend when ever possible, did indeed spend a small fortune crossing over from Utah into California to affect the outcome of the California voting.
I was born and raised and lived in California for almost 83 years. The results were to interfere in the California elections, not many years ago to defeat Prop 8 on our ballot.
Prop 8 would have ( NOT) taken away any of the rights of us that are straight, be we Catholic, Mormon, Protestant, Hindu, Jew, Muslim, Agnostic, Atheist, or any other, but in addition to our rights and beliefs, the law was extended to those that are LGBT and those that do not share our beliefs, but have beliefs of their own.
The University and Church were successful. Those rights were defeated in the ballot, but later overturned by the Supreme Court, as Unconstitutional. We believe in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law of the land.
Or, at least we use to.
Perhaps, if you lived in California, as I do, Your disagreement would not be so strong. I really do not think that you would believe that I have overstated anything, as most of the people that live here, would criticize me for understating the damage it did do our image as a Church and as a University, and as a football team.
The LGBT community has been out for retribution against our actions. (Some say illegal actions crossing state lines) or at least, Immoral actions, crossing state lines, to insist that all believe as we do, disregarding the beliefs of others. Our Football team suffers for those actions today and ongoing.
Pac 12 and Big 12 are examples of what I am talking about. When we play, FCS teams or the lowest of the G5 teams in order to try to guarantee a winning season and a bowl game, than, and only than, I am at the best of either a UCLA or USC game. I am always at every P5 game we play and games against the very respectful G5 team in Boise, Idaho. I am a team follower that gets the best seats on the market through Stub Hub.
Born near San Diego, spent first 7 years in Orange County and last 48 years in Ventura County. I think this qualifies me as born, raised and currently living here. I still follow the prophet and while I respect the laws of this country and state, I don’t have to agree with those laws.
I follow the “proclamation on the family” as well and will strive to do everything I can, within the laws of the land, to uphold and support the tenets and beliefs stated therein. The covenant of marriage as an institution has been decimated by our current culture and attitude. The promotion of same sex marriage is only one of many beliefs that is breaking down and destroying traditional marriage and the family. I will support those laws that strengthen the traditional family while continuing to do my best to love and respect ALL of my fellow brothers and sisters.
It is possible to do both.
Ron, If you go read the President Kimball talks or history, from what I gathered the backstory for the blacks and the priesthood was that President Kimball never felt it was right that the church withheld the priesthood from anyone who was black or had black in their ancestry.
He went to the Lord in prayer and over time he was told that we should lift the ban. I always thought it was strange that if this was truly a “doctrine” that a current Prophet would feel this way about that doctrine. Now that they have opened the door a little more, now it seems that there was never any doctrine behind the ban.
Most of what people said in the 40’s,50’s and 60’s was based on both Bruce McConkie and President Joseph Fielding Smith talks and books. I know, President Hinckley banned the use of Mormon (McConkie’s) Doctrine from being used in Gospel doctrine classes.
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This is what happens when people try to interpret scriptures as if it is a gospel principal. Caffeine was never the reason we were told not to drink “Hot Drink”, later Hot drink was defined by the Prophet as “Coffee and BLACK Tea”.
I have in my wallet a quote from President Kimball, that basically says drinking coke is not against the word of wisdom. Having said that, he goes on and says that ANYTHING that becomes an addiction is not holding to the Word of Wisdom.
So if you are addicted to say eating ice cream every day, you can’t live with out ice cream, that is not living the Word of Wisdom according to President Kimball. I think too many people try to make things more complicated than they need to be.
“So why am I talking so much about seemingly nothing??? It’s because I feel a need to not keep my mouth shut like the early Germans I spoke about.”
May I gently remind you, that it is very good to speak up when you feel things needs to be said, but remember, you are only looking through “your eyes” and not necessarily having all the facts that may or may not change your views.
I have found in the church that “Honesty” is not truly embraced, members do not react to people who are “Totally honest in their dealings with their fellow man” in a positive manner, it is better to be “kind” than “honest”… Now I will step off my soap box.