you lost me at Ken. 100% agree that ESPN is with us so long as we are indy but if we join the Mtn or USAA…they are gone.
Everyone just needs to relax and let these guys get their recruits playing before judgment. They coached well enough last year with Hill and Williams as leaders so give them time…BYU will be fine
Makes two of us…Chillax everyone
txcoug;
I am confused. What part of that said post, would cause one to lose their soul?
Are we equating making changes that will help our team achieve,— as losing our soul?
Is it better to keep doing the same things that in recent years, have proven not to work?
Did Laval Edwards lose his soul when he changed from a predominate running game to a passing game?
He saw a needed for change and he made it. He attracted the likes of Jim MacMahon, Steve Young, Ty Detmer,
Robbie Bosco, and the other greats with many going on to the NFL. Perhaps a more direct question is did Lavel lose his soul when he gave Jim MacMahon a change to play and excell?
After less than one year on campus with coco cola in the 1955 era, the Church/University is seeing fit to bring it back.
Has the Church/University lost it’s soul when they found a change that they thought was needed?
Who are we to judge? Did Lavel lose his soul directing us to getting a National Championship? A Heisman Trophy
Winner, or using a sinner quarterback to win a Miracle Bowl?
With the QB factor, yes, we lost our first string to injury before losing to the #93 Utah State for sixth time in 40 years.
Yes, we lost our second string QB early in the Utah State Game. Yes we tried but failed to be effective with our 3rd string QB. Yes, we tried a fourth QB that did not work out. Yes, but what does all than have to do with losing one;s soul?
“except for Squally Canada are RM types and 3 stars or less athletes.” Yes I agree with this statement and this is what I am taking about at least in part. What the heck does this have to do with losing one’s soul???
To answer your question, " Do we go back to G-5 or try for P-5? That is the question." Man----!!! I hope we are not quitters. I hope that we are not afraid to work hard, make needed changes, get better, work harder to get stronger athletes and do more teaching to those athletes like Lavel did. I want us to stop using that losing your soul card as an excuse to not improve.
It has to be a slap in the face to good Church owned schools, (all of us have had our problems at one time or another), like Boston College, like Baylor, like TCU, like ND, like SMU, like Prestarian, that all have strong religious values, most of which are not unlike our own, to come forth and act like we will lose our souls if we become competative once again. I don’t buy into this thinking. Why must we feel that we are the only Church School that has values. We wonder why we are thought of as being arrogant.
BYU Campus,
Because maybe, if not probably, as you say, there are some quality 4-5 star players that may not fit into the honor system, and therefore there is no reason for Wards, State Centers , Regions, to take a more active roll in helping to recruit or identify these athletes to the recruiters, within the moral and legal limits.
Heaven forbid that because these members may have 4-5 stars, some may not be able to live up to the Honor Code. So therefore, we should never try to get them. Only 3 star players and less are holy enough to live up to oue Honor Code. Okay, now I understand where you are coming from.
Read my whole strand from the begining. There is no intend to have our school lose it’s soul. I can see very plainly that I just
don’t fit in with this group so holy that they lose site of what is real. Save your soul and judge all others with talent as not being fit to play for us. Schush!!!
BYUCampus, your holyness,
Since when are 4-5 players evil and unable to live up to the honor code which you continually use as a reason not to improve?
Why is it that you believe that those with 3 stars or less are more holy than those with 4 stars or more?
If you read the post from the start, the suggestions have been to have Wards, Stake Centers, Regions, take a more active roll in letting our
recruiters take a bigger active role in recruiting these 4-5 star athletes from their wards, their stake Centers, their Regions so far as it is legal
and moral. Why are there so many on this site bent on finding fault with wanting to brainstorm on ways to morally and legally attract more
4-5 start players to our programs. Why is it assumed that if a Ward, or Stake Center, or Region has a member that is a 4-5 star player, that 4-5 star player
will be more likely to not follow the honor code than a member with 3 stars or less. Why must that( losing a soul ),be so widely used when it is not at all
appropriate.
Ron
Rubican,
What I believe you want is a FCS team to cheer for. Perhaps with history of once being a major contributer to the college football scene when they once won a Heisman Trophy a National Championship, a Miralce Bowl, but are now to holy to be success among the division 1 teams. You do not want to make any effort to improve, to be competative, or to take any risk. You have become too holy for the old successful, perhaps not as holy, BYU football. Good Luck If BYU ever goes, because of a lack of effort, to a FCS conference. I will find a serious, realistic, moral, school to follow that does not have their heads so high in the sky that they can not see the real earth that they live in. Forgive me for my disgust.
Ron, Ron, Ron,
I believe there are a fair number of 4 and 5 star players, a minority, that exemplify high moral standards that would be reasonably adaptable to the honor code. That said, my reasons still stand of why they would choose to go to other schools than BYU:
This includes members of the church. The same reasons apply to them as well. When you talk about members in Utah, you must also out recruit the U of U. We are occasionally successful, but it is an uphill battle and I stick with my reasons why. These reasons apply to all players no matter how many stars are awarded.
Ron:
I would rather we remain FBS. All I’m saying is that if it became necessary to drop down, I would still follow and root for BYU. I wouldn’t become a USC or Alabama fan and have BYU “be dead to me” because they weren’t Division 1. It has nothing with not wanting to make any effort to improve.
A lot of coping in life is managing expectations. When people refuse to do this or have unrealistic expectations, they go crazy or have inordinate stress in their lives. Even if the Brethren and BYU did a full-court press to compete with the big boys and get many 4-5 star recruits to come to and stay at BYU, we still are going to be hard-pressed to win 10 games any more in the current climate and system. That’s just the reality, given our values and standards, and it doesn’t mean that we aren’t willing to do what it takes.
I think a better long-term solution for CUSA, Sun Belt, MAC, MWC, AAC, and the independents would be to form our own division and play each other. Let the corrupt big money schools play each other — the system is set so they do, anyway. These G5 schools are more evenly matched, anyway.
Interestingly, Notre Dame also struggles to be competitive with good schools, and it drives their fan base and admin nuts, too. They would never drop down, and they still see themselves as being able to compete with the upper levels. They may fire Brian Kelly this year, and I think they’re still paying Tyrone Willinham and Charlie Weiss’s buyouts.
Rubicon,
I agree and feel you summed it up well. BYU is in a position to be a leader in organizing a G5 Conference association where the love of sports can compete with high finance. Let’s bring back the fun of the game and put players first.
Dropping down is never the answer in our personal lives or for BYU They have worked too hard and invested too much. I WOULD RATHER BE A 500 TEAM against good competition than delude myself into thinking I was good by playing lesser competition. This year is an anomaly. Give it a couple of more years
That’s my opinion too.
Sun Dance and Grashopper,
Thank you for your reply. You saved me. After being a 62 year dead in the wool fan of BYU Cougars, I was about to quit this forum as I felt the direction I want the Cougars to go in is in total opposition to those that fear getting 4-5 recruits somehow loses the soul of the program. Naturally I 100% diagree.
Thank you for your support of my cougars.
Rubicon,
Thank you for your reply. While I find it much more palabal than your previous response, I stll find much that we do not agree with. The change in your mood and tone, does allow me to stay on this site while your previous post brougt me close to leaving it. Thank you for the mellowed attitude. Now, we just have an intelligent differenence of opinion, which is very acceptable. Thank you again.
I find the concept that 4-5 star players are more likely to be bad for BYU than 3 star players or those with less than 3 stars, to be very disturbing.
I find that the P5 schools with the financial rewards which come from being a P5 team, as being corrupt and bad, or at least worse than those that are G5 teams or FCS teams, just as disturbing.
What happend to the principal that if one works hard, and specializes, and becomes the one of the best in their field, that person will be in demand? (What in this practice makes the person bad or corrupt !!!)
Why is it better for a 3 star or less, player than it is for the 4-5 star player?
What is it that a Ward, or Stake Center, or Region, can influence, within legal and moral boundaries,
those players that have 3 stars and less and these players will fit into our programs, but if they have 4-5 stars, they probably won’t fit in and cause the Church, the University, and the team more problems than we are willing to deal with.? Where is this nonsense coming from? Is it a throw back from the Gary Crowton years? Get over the Gary Crowton years !!! this is a new time and new set of circumstances, and if you read the post, the recruiting techniqye is totally different from the technique of the Gary Crowton era.
if you were not born with as much of the talent, or didn’t have as high of degree of great environment to succeed,or you did not have the backing to succeed, and therefore, perhaps, did not put forth the effort, through possible no fult of your own, to be as great as those that did have all the said advantages to succeed , than you probably got those good 3 star or less, but how does that make you more worthy of BYU team membership than those that did achieve those 4-5 stars?
By the way todays ranking for ND is #20. They are more often than not, in the top 25. So yes, they somethimes struggle with top notch P5 teams, but do you know how many National Championships they have and how many Heisman Trophy Winners they have, and how many of their players avearge over the past two decades find success in the NFL?
It wasn’t always easy for them. Not all people like Catholics like not all people like Mormons. They have had their share of hate as well as we have. They kept plugging along, working hard, making sacrafices, and finally got the respect of the college football world to the degree that they could join any P5 conference they want and that conference would be thrilled to have them.
They worked and endured, and paid the price for the respect they now enjoy. Are we up to it or not?
Ron:
“Why is it better for a 3 star or less, player than it is for the 4-5 star player?”
Nothing, in principle. The problem is that if we can get them to come here, they have always left early, especially if they are struggling (doubly so if they have to compete for playing time or starting) or if the team is struggling. If we can get 5 star LDS athletes to come here, and they are here through thick and thin because this is their team, everyone is all for that. It’s not that anyone is turning down highly-ranked recruits. They almost always don’t want to come here.
“What is it that a Ward, or Stake Center, or Region, can influence, within legal and moral boundaries, those players that have 3 stars and less and these players will fit into our programs, but if they have 4-5 stars, they probably won’t fit in and cause the Church, the University, and the team more problems than we are willing to deal with.?”
There really isn’t anything a ward, stake, etc. can do as far as recruiting. Our coaches are aware of talent that’s out there — it’s not a matter of church units not letting BYU know that they have a phenom living in their unit. Church leaders have no sway with elite athletes as far as where they choose to go. And, not all church leaders are monolithically BYU fans (many are not, especially outside of the intermountain west).
“By the way todays ranking for ND is #20.”
Yeah, but like always, they play some really weak teams (not that we could have beaten them this year). After they lose to the better teams on their schedule, they won’t be ranked, and I think Kelly will get fired. There is a reason that they are still paying two other buyouts. Their fans and administrators refuse to have realistic expectations for what is reasonable.
Perhaps, BYUCampus, we could hire consultants from ND to tell us how they overcame all the predijudice that they had, Perhaps they can tell us how they got 4-5 star players to help them, the University and the Church, by coming to Norte Dame to help make their Church owned school among the coveted greats.
For further assurance, pehaps we could hire more consultants from the other major football Univerisites, i.e. Boston College, Baylor, TCU, or heck, believe it or not, there are more Mormons at the University of Utah Utes, than any other major university in the Nation. Perhaps they can teach us,
or just possibly we can figure it out on our own without hiring anyone. We are pretty smart when we don’t let our arrogance get in the way.
RU: That’s not true, BYU has at least 96% LDS student body and has at least 5K more students that the U of U.
In comparing BYU to Notre Dame it may be useful to remember that the LDS Church has about 7 or 8 million members in the USA and the Catholic Church has 50 million members in the USA. That is a decent difference in the numbers.
Interesting question.
Improving strategy will make a bigger difference for us than any marginal improvements we can make currently in recruiting.
I actually think all your points are incorrect because nothing is different than it was during the Edward’s years. But somehow your final 2 paragraphs actually are correct. We run our offense like a high school team. Boring.
Your position surprises me. I’m not sure exactly why you think they’re wrong? I am genuinely curious though, so please go on.
I’ll defend or modify them slightly.
I do think there is an underdog strategy BYU can adopt as identity that would give us a chance at something special.
I forgot to address your point on the Edwards years. At the time, Lavell’s system was innovative and took risks. I don’t know how our recruiting classes stacked up back then because I don’t have the data handy, but I’m guessing we got the players we did thanks to a lower demand situation. Now everyone wants those player types. In short, we weren’t winning because we were recruiting top classes, we were winning because we were innovative, risky, and economical.