I am 100% in favor of the hire of Jeff Grime

[Ronald_Uharriet]

Thawk,

I believe your $25.00 average figure.

I am getting pretty old, (82) and it is hard for me to climb stairs and it is even harder for me to see, with or without glasses, so I buy my tickets through Stub Hub at an average price of $155.00 per ticket X 2 tickets at each and every home game. My seat is from 5-8 rows up off the field and as close as possibe as dead center of the goal post.

BYU Football is extremely important to me and has been since the start of school year 1953-54 when we were on the quarter system.

When I make suggestions that we look into possibility for positive changes, it is not because I do not like BYU, but the opposite, being that it is because I love BYU and I want as many as possible of our earths community, members or not, to also love us.

Over the years, I have heard many comments about us, and after awhile, one sees a patter and that patter is not always plesant as many see us as arrogant, non compromising, quick to blame others for our misfortunes, and attacking others that are not like ourselves. Some of us will never try to change and we will feel that we have good reason, while some of us, probably the minoity feel like our behavior, not our beliefs, would be well served if we learned how to get along better with others not of our fatih.

[Ronald_Uharriet]

thawk,

I agree with you, " We need TV revenue more than anything and that is where it comes back to the product on the field! TV and bowl money dwarfs the season ticket sales."

$10,000,000. TV contract with ESPN when we were good vs. $25,000,000 per team in the Big 12 is $15,000,000 difference. Add to that figure, the $4,500,000 from lost seats,
and add to that figure, the lost revenu from the venders at each game, and the need for success mounts up rapidly. Probably, the most important, yes even over all the money,
is the loss of respect when you are down, vs the more positive vibes from the national community when we are up. Thanks for your post.

Ron
From: T [email protected]
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 6:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [CougarFan - Boards] [Football] I am 100% in favor of the hire of Jeff Grime

thawk
December 16
Ron, just a little info on the question you asked about how much is the Y losing on a stadium that is half full…if it is a $25 average for football tickets and there are 30,000 people missing in the seats… that is $750,000 per game. Somehow I think that is a little high on the aver ticket price, but 6 home games a year puts the loss at $4,500,000 tops! Good P5 coaches earn about that amount. We need TV revenue more than anything and that is where it comes back to the product on the field! TV and bowl money dwarfs the season ticket sales.

[grasshopper]

By the way, about your list, I agree that numbers 2,3,4,5 should be done and upheld. Indians use peyote for their religious ceremonies. Satanists do animal sacrifices. There are Christians that believe couples can try out living together before marriage. Should we allow those differences on campus or by our students?

[Sundance]

You are right-BYU will never be a “Goliath” I think the majority of fans would like a good enough program to compete with P5 teams and not be a doormat of ineptitude that they were this year and I believe that’s what the powers to be in the church would like to see or there would never be the need to release any coach. I stand by my comment that the “deck is stacked”. But that’s ok, we have greater things to worry about. The deck has been stacked for many years-it’s what makes us perservere

[Clausewitz]

I did not actually say the system was rigged against us. That was @Rubicon. I’m not sure how I would characterize it. I think BYU at it’s best could do 1/10 year NY6 bowl, average 10 wins, and be competitive. That said, winning a championship is a longshot. So in that sense, we have a ceiling or at least a tough climb. The goal I put forward is lofty but doable if we do what’s needed. I can root for that.

The reason a championship is a longshot is simple: I would say there are certain choices we make that make it hard.
-We choose to ask coaches to follow an honor code. That’s a hard sell. I understand where the church is coming from there.
-Ditto for the players.
-Let’s be honest. UNC just got caught, and got off scot free I might add, with a huge academic scandal. Several top-tier universities got nailed by the FBI for illegal practices, not just NCAA violations. Cheating happens at the top, not everyone does it, but it’s prevalent. We shouldn’t cheat.
-The church has certain views which make it politically unpopular in some circles. But the doctrine is what it is.
-Just the fact that BYU is religiously associated can make it unpopular in some people’s eyes.
-It’s possible that even if BYU won 11 games a year on avg and frequently made it to the NY6, the above 2 reasons could keep us out of a conference. Not saying for sure because I’m not in those boardrooms, but it’s a plausible scenario.

Some are related to geography and demographics, not much to change here:
-Provo isn’t for everybody and it’s harder to sell
-BYU is very white and it can be uncomfortable being a ‘double minority’ as Brian Logan puts it.

Some are easily corrected:
-Pay for better coaches
-Pay for better facilities to recruit players

I’m not presenting these as excuses. Merely pointing out the challenges inherent to the landscape. There’s no reason we couldn’t do the following especially with a bigger budget:

NY6 1/10 years
Avg 10 wins
Establish an identity as a savvy and competitive underdog.

(I’m modifying my realistic goal as I iterate it)

I don’t see any reason why those 3 goals aren’t enough? I think they’re excellent and doable.

[Clausewitz]

I agree with aspects of what you’re saying. The church has been clear about being respectful of other’s beliefs without conforming to them.

No need to criticize others but we must quietly go about our beliefs
-We don’t play on sunday
-We better not cheat (We’re all thinking it…)
-We believe in Proc on the family and even if we never ever wade into the political arena again on that point people will dislike that.

And so on.

Money could fix some of the problems. But we face others because of how we choose to live and believe. We should embrace those challenges because I’m not stepping down from my beliefs even if that means the football program suffers.

I think we’re on the same page on that?

@Ronald_Uharriet I think we can still win at a very high level even with the challenges presented by our association with the LDS church and the attendant requirements if we embrace the role of underdog. Probably do need a bigger budget though.

[Floyd_Edwards]

Well we can always hope their is an FBI investigation into the BCS like they did with Basketball…

[aro]

Amen to your post.

I was happy when BYU was in the WAC and later on in the Mountain West with Utah and TCU still in the conference. BYU always had a chance to the win that conference and beat Utah at least 50% of the time and occasionally have a special season like 1980, 83, 84, 96 and a real good year like in 2001, 2006, 2007, 2009 and some of Edwards good years other than the ones I mentioned above… BYU was never going to be an elite program but at least they were good and could be competitive and occasionally top ten. That is about as good as it will ever get for BYU, and any other mid major, because the deck it stacked and the P5 conferences don’t want BYU for a number of reasons. Boise State should be BYU’s model. I think we may have been theirs a number of years ago. That is realistic and it isn’t half bad.

I would like to see BYU make a final 4 in basketball. That is doable. A number of mid majors have done it, but forget about doing it on a regular basis. If it happens once in my lifetime it would be enough for me. I would like to see the football team in a New Years Day bowl again. That could happen about once every 10-15 years.

BYU can have excellent football and basketball teams on a regular basis but forget about being elite.

[Ronald_Uharriet]

Aro,

Thank you for your post, and for your Amen to mine.

I remember when Uah, TCU and BYU where altogether in the MWC and Boise State was begging to get in,
(much like later, when BYU was begging to get into the Big 12), and we had many postings saying they were
not good enough to be in the MWC.

At that time, The Big East was still a P6 conference team. I remember thinking that if we did get Boise State
into our conference, the combination of Utah, BYU, TCU, and Boise State, along with some of the other
conferenes like Air Force, and Colorado State, (Remembering the Marshall Faulk days), would probably be
stronger than the Big East and maybe the MWC could replace the Big East as a P6 conference. That was a
fun dream. That was a fun expectation, but the success of Utah and the success of TCU leaving the MWC
killed that dream and left us without a dream, and virtually without a direction. We new that we could no longer
stay in the MWC and be significant without TCU and Utah in our conference.

Well part of the situation came true. Boise State did join the MWC after our departure. We did become
Independent. We thought for awhile that we were a Power Team, without a power conference. Since that
time, we have proven that we are not a power team.

The fact is, if we want to be in a P5 conference, that plays a minimum of 9 P5 teams each season, we must
demonstrate that we are capable of playing 9 P5 teams with a reasonable successful outcome. We have been
working toward that goal the last few years, playing 4,5, and once 6 P5 teams, backed up with the rest of the
teams on our scheduled ranked in the 100 range. Until this year, with those 4 or 5, P5 teams, we have had a
respectable, not good, but okay season considering how many teams we played ranked in the 100’s vs how
many teams we played from P5 teams.

We got a Heisman Trophy Winner, 14 year NFL veteran to be our OC. Many of us beleived that this Giant of a
catch, would be the bolt we needed even without college football coaching experience.

Now we have landed another giant catch, with experience in most of the P5 conferences. Again, we expect
him to be the bolt we need, but again, we take the man with no OC experience.

Until the Church/University sees that they can no longer get something for nothing, and instead, start paying
the competative pay for the top notch coaches with the experience needed to attract the top athletes needed
to make BYU a successful competitor at the higest level, we will keep being dissappointed at the end of each
season as you can not make sweet orange juice out of lemons.

[JCoug]

@Ronald_Uharriet

“Look at which teams are in the playoffs year after year so far…”
Yes, the playoffs are to determine which is the best team in the Nation, most capable of beating all other teams.
It is not to determine who’s religion is the best or the most true, or who sends out the most missionaries. No, that is not what the playoffs are about.

This is why I have a hard time reading your posts. I’m sorry, but I never brought religion into this equation, other than to say that I get tired of hearing fans criticize the church because they don’t spend more money to bring in a different coach.

[JCoug]

@Ronald_Uharriet

Over the years, I have heard many comments about us, and after awhile, one sees a patter and that patter is not always plesant as many see us as arrogant, non compromising, quick to blame others for our misfortunes, and attacking others that are not like ourselves.

Sounds like you need to change the people you hang out with. If I was around people, not of my faith, that constantly criticized me or my beliefs I wouldn’t want to hang out with them that much. I live in California and I don’t get the same vibe you seem to get. Most people I am around think my religion and beliefs are great. They admire me for standing up for something good and appreciate my perspective and values.

[JCoug]

@Ronald_Uharriet

attacking others that are not like ourselves.

I don’t believe it.

Maybe you are referring to those of us who try hard to maintain a standard of truth and believe in and follow the prophets and commandments. I never really thought that trying to choose the right is akin to “attacking others that are not like ourselves” but that seems to be what you are suggesting.

Honestly, where does this “attacking” accusation come from?

[JCoug]

@Ronald_Uharriet

Again, I disagree with you, but hopefully much more politely compared to how you disagree with me.
I will say nothing about the torturous remarks you make in trying to discredit all that I say.
I will say nothing about your apparent inability to understand the message which I try to convey.

LOL… you will say “nothing”

[JCoug]

@Ronald_Uharriet

Aro,

Thank you for your post, and for your Amen to mine.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news Ron, but Aro’s response was to my post. I am sorry if that makes you feel like I am arrogant and critical of others beliefs that are not the same as mine. Sometimes when we point out the truth, like I am with Aro’s post, it upsets people.

That is what happens when you have the truth. It makes other people angry and upset and they will accuse you of being arrogant, critical, etc. It’s just the way it is.

[JCoug]

@Ronald_Uharriet

Until the Church/University sees that they can no longer get something for nothing, and instead, start paying
the competative pay for the top notch coaches with the experience needed to attract the top athletes needed
to make BYU a successful competitor at the higest level, we will keep being dissappointed at the end of each
season as you can not make sweet orange juice out of lemons.

I respectfully and in all humility… DISAGREE.

[Ronald_Uharriet]

Clauswitze,

I think that we are saying the same thing with different wording.

" The church has been clear about being respectful of other’s beliefs without conforming to them."

I think that it is the membership, and not the Chuch that needs to improve in this area.

" No need to criticize others but we must quietly go about our beliefs"
This is almost word for word what I have been saying but not heard.
Hold on to our beliefs, but don’t try to force others to conform to our beliefs.

" Money could fix some of the problems. But we face others because of how we choose to live and believe".
I totally agree as stated. Where we may or may not be different is that I believe that how we choose to live may be improved in the follow ways.

1. Live our beliefs to the fullest, but stop insisting that others must live according to our beliefs, especially where there is a stricking difference. Leave judgment to God, as commanded that we do.

2. Live a virtious life, but don’t brag about it. Let it be between yourself and God. He that prays in public shall be rewarded by that public. (Oh what a wonderful man he is), but he that prays in the closet shall be rewarded by me. (A personal relationship with God)

3. The ten commandments is a great starting point for all of us to thrive perfection with. Once perfected, branch out into other commandments. Let he without sin cast the first stone. Judge not, lest ye be judged and leave all judging to God.

[Sundance]

If the deck wasn’t stacked against us we would have been a P5 school years ago. There is nothing we lack or have lacked for years.

[Ronald_Uharriet]

Clausewitz,

I really think that our thinking is basically on the same page.

The areas that we may or (may not), have differences with, include the following:

I look for all the reasons and all the ways that we as a BYU Cougar Football team can improve, while others look at all the reasons why we should not improve. i.e.

  .  Selling one's soul for football

  .  smoking drugs, cheating with academics, we might include rape, stealing, cussing, and any other bad reason why 
     searching for excellence is wrong.

 .  Choosing between the gospel and football.

 . many other holy reasons why we should not look for ways to achieve perfection as a goal, if not a reality.

My idea is that we need not sell our soul to seek perfection.
Trying to get the best coaches that can attract the best athletes is not selling ones soul, but it may require that
we pay an honest competative salary. We neec to attract someone like Andy Reed or someone else that might
be able to attract the more gifted athletes. That cost a competative pay.
(Pennhy wise, pound foolish) comes to mind in underpaying a coach and therefore getting a coach that will work
for less, instead of getting us a coach that can earn us more.

Once again compare the income difference between a $10,000,000 TV contract to a $25,000,000. TV. Contract.

Compare a 14-17 million dollar bowl game to a 750,000 to 1.5 million dollar bowl game.

Compare the half full stadium at $15.00 per seat tickets to a full stadium at $65.00 per seat. Don’t forget all
he venders in both the stadium and the book store, student center.

Proud teams bring in big money while shameful teams cost more money than they bring in.

Investing in BYU Cougar Football is big business and when done correctly, it is a big profit business.

We can invest in CocoCola Company, in Department Stores, in Rail Roads, in Radio stations, in
News Papers, and in TV Networks. How is investing in the Athletic Department of the Church owned Univeristy,
any less holy?

Does the CocoCola Company, Department stores, Rail Roads do more to promote the Church Values than
BYU Cougar Football.

My plea is that we ALL, start thinking of the postive ways of how to make BYU Cougar Football Sucessful and stop
making up a bunch of reasons why we should not try to make BYU Cougar Football successful.

Some of our posters in the name of all that is holy, sound to me like the worst of the UTAH UTES that would like
to see us stay down without the possibility of ever raising our heads again. This is no way intended to insult the Utes,
but it is used to open the eyes of those that think they are the most rightous among us that would keep us down with any
excuse they can dream up.

[Ronald_Uharriet]

Sundance,

I do have some empathy for what your are conveying. I really do.

It was fun being in the WAC. It was fun being in the MWC.
It was fun competing where we had a chance to be conference
champions and it was fun to ocassionally upset a Power
Conference team.

I continue, it was fun thinking that our MWC, with BYU, Utah,
TCU, and the possibility of Boise State joining our conference
would make us better than the Big East and possibly replacing
the Big East as the MWC power conference.

When Utah left for the Pac 10/12 and TCU left for the Big 12/8, that
was letting the Gene out of the Box. Once the Gene was let out
of the Box, there is no way to put him back into the Box. Things
have changed for ever. We must now find a way to adjust, or quit.
I hope and I pray, that we are not quitters.

Independence sort of, but not really, took us out of the mid major
catagory and made us feel, sort of, but not really, like a P5 team,
without a P5 conference.

We understand, when we are honest with ourselves, that to be a
P5 team, we must have some success playing at least 9 P5 teams
per season. Some success would include winning 4-5 of those
9 games.

For a few years, we tried playing 4-5 P5 teams, balancing out the
season with the rest of the teams except for one, ranked in the 100’s.
How to measure a 8-10 win season play 4-6 decent teams with
6+ team ranked in the 100’s is uncertain, but we at least maintained.
This last season, we proved to the world, and most importantly to
ourselves that we are no where close to being a P5 team.

We can investigate the BCS, the NCCA, the Power Conferences all we
want. the fact is, they are the best of the majority of the best. The rest
of us are not, until we make the necessary changes to get us where we
want to be. Faith without works is dead.

Being a fully invested BYU Football team will not happen again, until
adjustments are made, (Work with faith works), so that we can be
significant again. And this has nothing to do with sellling one’s soul.

[Ronald_Uharriet]

Jim,

Some folks are happier finding a glass half empty, while others prefer to see the glass half full. In either case, there is the same amount of fluid in the glass.

Some would rather find reasons why something can not be done, while others prefer to try to find ways that something can be done. Checks and balances are not bad as long as the checks and balances are open and respectful.

Putting a person down for their differences may build one’s own ego, but to others it may show a lack of ability to disagee respectfully.