Out of Handbook 1:
When Disciplinary Councils are mandatory
Apostacy.
1- A person repeatedly acts in deliberate apposition to the Church or Church Leaders.
2- A person persists in teaching information that is not church doctrine after they have been corrected by their Bishop or by a high authority.
He was possibly guilty of both of those, and was notified of a disciplinary council and gave his side of the story. The Stake Presidency met seeking the spirit and made the decision to excommunicate. KC, this council is not to push people out of the church, but to help them on their road to repentance. If they do repent, they are able to be re-baptised, and regain all church blessings including the priesthood. There are many that Humble themselves, repent, and do just that. There are also many that are prideful, and never come back.
I have served on councils before and know how they function, and itās because of that I feel itās time to change the procedures and those who desire to keep their membership should be able to. Itās an outdated procedure in my opinion, and the recent missuse of it in my opinion has harmed the church not helped it.
The church at times doesnāt match what I believe the savior would do, and we can simply do better to be more like him in how we handle our brothers and sisters.
the more you posts KC, the more I am of the opinion that you are ākicking against the pricksā (scriptural reference) KC.
The process is not outdated, the process is what the Lord laid out (per revelation). I donāt always agree with the outcome, but you know what? It does not matter what I think or what you think, the Lord decides these things.
Floyd, the processes are how we lay them out, thatās why we adapt and change from time to time as we learn and develop. Changes in how programs and councils are run are updated and tweaked all the time. Revelation is reserved for doctrine not day to day functions of the church.
kcā¦ Excommunication is a āDoctrineāā¦ not just a policyā¦ Check out DC 102ā¦ it pretty much lays out what needs to be doneā¦
Letās just take a subject. Suppose a returned missionary or anyone who holds a Temple Recommend commits Adultery or Homosexual acts. By letting them continue, how is that a ācourt of love?ā How is that a Church of Love? Allowing people to believe sin is acceptable and entrance to the Celestial Kingdom or any Kingdom of Heaven can be done without repentance? All blessings are predicated upon OBEDIANCE to the laws and commandments of God, PERIOD! That will never change.
If you believe that every day to today function of the Church has nothing to do with revelation, then you have strayed way beyond the line of coming back. All people are able to receive personal revelation. Those with keys are also able to receive revelation to their callings and those they lead. All those with callings can receive revelation within their callings. The Holy Ghost is for all to be influenced by. Even you are able to receive revelation for you and your family. I donāt think you quite understand revelation. Hereās a revelation for you. Check out D&C 102.
Wasnāt it Satan who said he would take us all down to the Earth and there would be no sin so everyone would return? If there is no punishment then there is no sin. We would be following Satanās plan. I have no idea what KC is thinkingā¦
How it is used varies from ward to ward, stake to stake. In the end, if someone wants to remain a member and has simply doubts or expressed doubts about the church, it should not be grounds for excommunication. I have sat on plenty of councils where adultery, drug abuse, spouse abuse, child abuse, you name it and there still is a line where not all of these are exed, yet someone had a blog where they express doubts and they want to stay a member but we kick them out. Just doesnāt seem Christlike to me. I donāt recall him ever sending anyone away, let alone a sinner whoās only āsinā is doubting. Not everything that has ever been uttered from a prophet, a pulpit, or even the scriptures is infallible and above questioning. Anyone who believes otherwise is in danger of being led down dark paths.
KC: if someone wants to remain a member and has simply doubts or expressed doubts about the church, it should not be grounds for excommunication.
You are obsoletely correct, people who have doubts and even express those doubts, are NOT excommunicated.
Those that have doubts, express their doubts AND Then try to persuade OTHERS is a reason for Excommunication.
Do you see the difference KC? The later is what John didā¦
You say pursway I say provide a forum for honest discussion of doubts. Either way, he wanted to stay a member, his local leaders didnāt agree. There are many others just like him who happen to still be members simply because their local leaders interpret the instruction different than his.
All I am saying is there are enough people who no longer want to be members that we keep on the records, those who still want to be should, even if they are sinners like the rest of us.
Stop the nonsensical rhetoric. You claim to know everything about the guy including the reason for why he was exeād and then portray him as a guy who simply had questions and a few doubts.
Thatās nonsense and deep down within you probably know it.
I believe you may need to rethink who āis in danger of being led down dark pathsā¦ā
Come on man, youāre smarter than that.
Just tired of it. Doesnāt look good nor make sense. In an era where we are seeing more and more leave the church for whatever reason, we should be more active in helping those who desire to stay, stay. Instead of chasing them away out of fear. Just sends the wrong message IMO.
KCā¦
Sorry to bust your bubbleā¦ But John DID NOT want to remain active in the church. He went to his bishop and told him soā¦
then he went out and openly tried to persuade others to believe him in both women holding the priesthood and BOM was a book of fiction.
This is all in the articles that about John, sorry you did not see them, but it was well known that John and his family had stopped coming to church.
But I am beginning to worry about you. It seems you have a lot of angst against the church (Beer drinking, Less Christ like behavior of the brethren, etc.).
about 60% of the members of record donāt attend church, and I would guess a large % of them donāt believe the BOM is what it claims to be. We keep them on the membership roles, why? Multiple bloggers and podcasters support the same things John did, and are still members. Iām not taking about activity level, Iām talking about people who want to remain Mormons, but donāt believe or live all the rules, should not be forced out. Itās an outdated practice and in 20 years from now our grandkids will look back on this as we do on the blacks and priesthood and just scratch their heads on why more people didnāt speak up about it.
Ignorance no longer is an acceptable excuse for this generation, we need a reformation of sorts. We as a church are walking a line that is a dangerous one. I hope we donāt wait too long to recognize it.
No, it does not KC. Revelation in these matters, as well as all matters of the Gospel are the same in America as well as any other country. If leaders stray from the revelation they receive and do not do what the Lord commands, then there lies a problem. Iāve known more than one person who doubted their Patriarchic Blessing, moved and asked for another one. They received almost word for word verbatim of the first.
The Lord knows the hearts and minds of all men and women in the Church. He knows the extent of personās sorrow for committing the sin. He knows the extent of the personās repentance. He knows whether the person will do it again or not. He also knows the heart and mind of the victim as well. He knows to the extent how the act of sin will affect others in the Church or the Church itself. He knows to the extent of the sinnerās influence on members and non-members alike. The fact it took so long to finally come to excommunication for this guy shows restraint and careful listening to the Holy Ghost to know Godās will. Kind of reminds me of Abraham and his attempt to stall the destruction of Sodom and Gamorrah. But, it finally happened, didnāt it.
Again, doubts isnāt what Devlin was doing. He had gone beyond this cunningly drawing in people and leading them astray. He will still do it but those with testimonies will see that he was acting without the Holy Ghost and a testimony. Those who understand that without punishment fitting the sin, there can be no sin nor ultimately God. Alma 42:17-22, "15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.
16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?
18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.
19 Now, if there was no law givenāif a man murdered he should dieāwould he be afraid he would die if he should murder?
20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?
22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.
I think you are wrong and spreading a false doctrine. One Korrihor also spread. Be careful brother not to eliminate justice from the equation. Jesus did not. Each case is different as Iāve outlined above. The Lord decides since he is the one who Atoned for our sins.
I doubt that, the recomend process required and the fact these are all recorded on a central data base would prevent that fr happening. But just as temple work keeps getting duplicated to keep people busy, I guess this could be a possibility,
Or the new patriarch simply read their old one and gave them the new one to teach them a lesson.
Either way, Iām not buying your mormon legend as I have heard way too many second hand versions of this type of crap over the years. They are 99% bunk.
We arenāt talking about ignorance. The laws and commandments must be adhered to even if you donāt like them. Depending upon the person, breaking a law or a commandment will mean different punishments. Those 60%, most of which are non-temple recommend holders and never have been, are not at the same level when breaking a law or commandment. Thus, arenāt going to receive the same level of punishment. Devlin and the others who have recently been excommunicated were temple recommend holders at one time or another. They were held to a higher standard as they should for God will not be mocked and they took upon them that covenant.
Blacks and the Priesthood had nothing to do with ignorance. You, however, are ignorant to the doctrines and commandments. And, especially with the covenants. Someone who is openly attacking the Church and causing others to question their testimony with the desire to have others follow them doesnāt get to stay in the Church regardless of whether they want to or not. Itās not up to you or anyone else. The Lord makes those decisions through the Holy Ghost. Iām sorry you no longer accept the Holy Ghost and his revelations to those with the keys of authority. Itās sad to watch a good member fall.
Shows your young age. Sorry, but when I received my blessing, there were no data bases. Oh, the blessings were transcribed the best they could and then sent to Salt Lake, hard copy. But, no way to trace that. And, no computer to get an immediate copy back in those days for the new patriarch. And, once again, you suppose things without the Spirit. No, these things happened and still do. But, you reject these personal revelations as legends and nonsense. I can tell. Apostasy is setting in and Iād advise you to seek the Lord and faith in him. I can see you sitting in that great and spacious building with the other naysayers and abusers of the faithful. Condescending comments about the oracles of God in both past and present times. Yielding to the liberalism of the current day and their political correctness over the words of God. Speaking closer like Korrihor than a Priesthood holder. Just telling it like I read itā¦
I didnāt read this one. What does having a crime have to do with excommunication? Why is that a piece of criteria for excommunication? The Church is not a political entity nor a body of secular government in our country or any country on the planet. Neither was it for Christian Saints in the time of Christ or Paul. The laws, commandments and covenants of God including the punishments are not decided upon manās concepts of crime or punishment. Nor exclusion either. The Church is a private entity with itās own by-laws. Through revelation, our leaders who hold keys of the Priesthood make decisions by way of prayer and revelation. And, nothing to do with manās laws.
And your use of the term āinfractionā in the place of āsinā is laughable.
The church without question is subject to the laws of the land and policies have adapted to be in line with the laws of the land for over 100 years. It is very relevant.