Cougar fans sometimes disagree on the process to achieve the same goal

I seem to remember that Pepperdine does (they are Church of Christ-affiliated. That was the Cambellites, the group that Sidney Rigdon and other prominent early Mormons came from). Or, at least, they have to affirm a statement of belief that would be an issue for a Mormon (trinity, etc.).

Liberty’s is interesting. It was liberalized a bit a couple of years ago to be more vague (“teach correct principles, and let them govern themselves” -style). Accessing the current text requires a login.

But, the old text is archived here:

https://archive.org/stream/TheLibertyWayLibertyUniversity/Liberty%20University-Way%20of%20Liberty_djvu.txt

Interestingly, this wording prohibits “sexual relations outside of a biblically ordained marriage between a natural-born man and a natural-born woman” at Liberty. Is this referring to in-vitro, or children of gay parents who used in-vitro, or what?

Oral Roberts is pretty similar to BYU, without ecclesiastical endorsements.

Rubicon,

I am not interesting in supply evidence that other institutions are not as holy as ours.

Instead, I am trying to find ways that we can improve to the point, in recruiting and coaching, that we
can be competative vs the teams that we now play.

This season might suggest that we have at least temporaily lost our edge to compete.

I am not interested in reasons why we must continue to fail at the degree we failed this 2017 Sseason.
Instead, I am interested in ways that we might improve, if the will of those in power, will allow us to make improvements that will cause us to improve.

I am not interested in why we must continuie to fail. Instead, I am interested in what we might do to achieve.
If you have any positive response that might help us improve, I would like very much to hear your views.

SG: One way is to recruit those athletes that will live up to the standards of the school. Life isn’t about winning championships. It’s about winning but not at all cost. Not giving up your principles for a win in a football game.

Then we shouldn’t hear you bring up other schools’ “honor codes” ever again, right?

I didn’t refer to them to prove that we’re “holier than they.” I did it to show that comparing our honor code to theirs is comparing apples to walnuts. We’re not talking about the same thing.

1 Like

I think the Service Academies has some pretty stringent HC…

Everything from personal grooming, conduct off and on the field, etc. They include physical fitness in their code of conduct.

Wonder what the Students would do at BYU if physical fitness was a requirement of the HC?

I think the only thing that is different from BYU is the Word of Wisdom issues and some moral issues…

But that’s the core of the issue. When people talk about changes to the honor code, they are talking about WoW or law of chastity. And changing either of these makes BYU just another school.

I don’t think think it would result in a massive influx of 4-5 star athletes, either, even if the HC were changed . . . :wink:

McKay,
My main point through all this has not been to remove the HC, but to get BYU to administer the rules fairly when it comes to the athletes.

I don’t want to go back to the days of Lavell, where BYU officials kind of looked the other way when players violated the rules… but saying that I don’t want BYU to make the player an “Example” as it was under President Bateman and Fred Skousen.

And for me… when I have heard people talking about changes to the HC, they were NOT talking about changing the WOW, Chasity, Gay issues, etc.

They were talking about things like being able to wear facial hair (you can be a bishop and wear a beard), relax the dress standards, while maintaining modesty, seriously, women can not wear Capri’s? That is a bit weird. My wife wears them and I can tell you she lives the standards of the Gospel better than anyone I know.

I think the words of Joseph Smith comes to mind “I TEACH them correct principles, and they govern themselves.”

Have things changed so much since the 90s? We could wear knee-length shorts then. I thought BYU-I had the super strict dress standards.

Doesn’t BYU allow “well-trimmed” mustaches and beards now? And, it’s obvious that BYU has relaxed on hair length. I’m pretty old-school, and liked the no facial hair policy. I think it looks more classy when men shave.

I agree that the standard (whatever it is) should apply equally to athletes/non-athletes, with no one being subject to more scrutiny.

Floyd, More than 90% of the time, I agree with you more than I do the others on this site. However, I do question what I think you are saying. Hopefully I am wrong.

"I don’t want to go back to the days of Lavel " One of the things that I admired most about Lavel Edwards was his ability to show tolorance, acceptance of diversity, forgiveness, and humility. That combination, in my opinion, brought about, (along with his excellent coaching abilities, and new west coast passing game, which the rest of college football was use to), a winning combination, to name a few, (Jim MacMann, Steve Young, Ty Detmer, and many other greats), a Miracle Bowl, a National Championship, and a Heisman Trophy.

I totally agree with your statement “They were talking about things like being able to wear facial hair (you can be a bishop and wear a beard), relax the dress standards, while maintaining modesty, seriously, women can not wear Capri’s? That is a bit weird. My wife wears them and I can tell you she lives the standards of the Gospel better than anyone I know.”

The part that I like most about your statement was "I think the words of Joseph Smith comes to mind “I TEACH them correct principles, and they govern themselves.”

This reminds me of the days when we, taught/learned, that we were given our free agency to choose right from wrong’ and G O D would judge us according to the choices we make. "Judge not, lest ye be judged, and leave all the judging to G O D. But of course, I remember, we only believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly and this part was probaby wrong. right???

Rubicon,

What in the world is in your mind? Where are you coming from? Where did you develop the need to be so falsely judgmental. Name one person, or one post, that suggest that, as you say, " When people talk about changes to the honor code, they are talking about WoW or law of chastity.

Every post I have read on this site, by any/all other persons, are talking about possible changes that could make BYU more successful with recruiting and coaching in order to be more competative vs the teams that we now play.

Only in your mind, as far as I can determine at this point, is anyone suggesting changes in word of wisdom or law of chastity.

Floyd,

I think that Rubion is so introspective that he does not realize that there is life outside the LDS community. I think that his belief that the LDS are the only people with moral code of ethics, belief in God, and values worth while, represent the arrogance that cause many P5 conferences to not want to deal with us.

We want it all. We want to make no compromises. We want to make no changes. We want to be satisified with our recruiting that does not give us the recruits to successfully compete vs teams we now play. We want to continue to limit oourselves to the tiny group of coaches that now qualify to be our Head Coach while the rest of the football world can choose the best in the nation regardless of which religion they belong to. We want to be able to suspend our athletes for many games or for a season, that they would have no penalty for under NCAA rules at other universities.
Under our rules today, Jesus Christ and Brigham young would be among the group that could not qualify to get into BYU due to their facial hair.

Yet, we blame GOD for our own stubernness to not be willing to make any changes, and we blame society at large for being predjudice against us, and we scream that we must have changes in the NCAA rules, and sometimes in the past, we have even threatened to sue the NCAA and we do all of this because “we”, the almighty “WE”, can not or will not make any effort to conform to the rules of NCAA football. Frankly, sometimes I fear, that while in kindergarden, we did not spend enough time in the sand box. (learning how to get along with others)

What happened to the teachings that “We believe in living, sustaining and obiding by the law of the land”?
Is there any kind of a message here that we should make an effort to get along in our business dealings, our community functions, our football, basketball, baseball, field and track, tennis, swiming etc. or just get along in general???

Frankly Floyd, I address this to you, not because I believe that you are among the guilty, but because you have an open mind, so it seems, while others, instead of listening to what I am trying to say, would rather shout me down and tell me where I am wrong.

I say these things not for dissaappointment in the BYU Cougar program, buit because I want them to be able to get the tools and the instructions on how to use the tools, in order to build a sustainable program. I do not want us to quit because we are afraid of change that is needed to succeed.

Ron,
I am not sure that your observation of McKay(Rubicon) is actuate. I believe he lives outside of the state of utah and has a pretty good grasp of the gospel.

Over the years we have had some really good gospel discussions, without ever feeling he was condescending toward me or my opinion, in fact he has been very respectful. Nor do I think he devalues others religious beliefs that are not LDS.

That is how I view McKay, I can not say that about others I have discussed things with on this board.

As for your other points, As a whole, The Organization called the LDS church has historically paid their employees below market value. Part of that I think is the view that Tithes and Offerings are sacred, and they want to make sure that the funding is spent wisely.

That Mentality is at BYU as well, even though the Sports Programs for the most part are self funded, those in charge has the same thought process as the church does.

We do not need to get “Top” tier coaches as you think, Who was Chip Kelly before he was at Oregon? or Ken Niumatalolo at Navy? Or Chris Peterson at Washington, before he was the HC at Boise State? Even our beloved Lavell Edwards was a losing high school coach before coming to BYU.

Us as FANS, have become spoiled to winning, Lavell set the bar high for expectation and ever since then we as fans have been clamoring for the return to glory.

You have to understand that a lot of coaches will not come to BYU because of the HC and the fact that we do not pay well. One, we do not take football as serious as say Alabama fans, they believe football is right below worshiping GOD. Second, we do not have the donor base that some of these big schools has. These are facts of life.

So what can we do? We hire the best coach we can… I believe that is Kalani, I have met him and know his father. They are good honorable men and I believe Kalani will do what it takes to get us back on the path. I believe his biggest down fall when he was hired was to hire assistant coaches that were under qualified. several of the offensive coaches had little to no high school coaching experience, let alone D1 level coaching experience.

I think the HC should be studied to make it more in line with our current culture, but no way do I think that we should change the HC when it comes to Personal worthiness issues with regards to Chasity or Word of Wisdom. Nor do I think they should change the rules for lying, cheating and things of that nature.

I think sometimes people look at things in a bubble, their view of the world bubble and can not see any other options.

“Hairstyles should be clean and neat, avoiding extreme styles or colors, and trimmed above the collar leaving the ear uncovered. Sideburns should not extend below the earlobe or onto the cheek. Men are expected to be clean shaven, mustaches, if worn, should be neatly trimmed and may not extend beyond or below the corners of the mouth. Beards are not appropriate.”

That is the standard on BYU website… So no, men can not wear beards…

Personally, I love beards or rather goatees… I had a mustache for over 25 years…My middle daughter had never seen me without one (she now 30) until I shaved it, so I could work at the Draper Temple… She was shocked…

I think if I can get into the most of all sacred buildings (Temples) and learn the most sacred of all gospel doctrine,with the standards that the church requires to get into the temple… That should be sufficient for going to a church owned school.

my personal opinion and I can live with others not agreeing with it.

I think you misunderstood my post…
Lavell was a great coach and tried to work with his players when they screwed up, that is the point LAVELL worked with the players and there was no threat of expulsion by the HC.

It was a pretty well understood by most students during this time that if you were an athlete during time Lavell was coach and did something that violated the HC, generally nothing was done to the player.

That is why Fred Skousen put a stop to that and swung the pendulum to far to the other side… If they did anything, they were crucified both in the press and by the HC… I think it is coming back to the middle, but they still are dealt more harshly than the normal student…

I think we should focus on adapting to the limitations of the honor code instead of forcing it to change. I’m sure there are a few things that can be updated… Beards for one. But sex, alcohol and drugs will always be in the list and that’s the biggest sticking point with recruits. And there must be a punishment. If it’s not missing games… It’s got to be something extremely tough.

Underdogs can win if they’re smart. I can root for that team.

CLAUSEWITZ,
I am trying to find ways that we can improve to the point, in recruiting and coaching, that we can be competative vs the teams that we now play.

I TOTAL DISAGREE WITH YOUR POST, " sex, alcohol and drugs will always be in the list, (HC), and that’s the biggest sticking point with recruits. "

I RESPECTFULL DISAGREE.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MOST 4-5 STAR ATHLETES WOULD REFUSE TO COME TO BYU BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT PERMITTED TO USE ALCOHOL OR DRUGS OR HAVE SEX.

I THINK THAT NOW, MOST 4-5 STAR ATHLETES GO TO THE UNIVERSITY THAT GIVES THEM THE GREATEST CHANCE OF GETTING INTO THE NFL, AND THE WAY THINGS ARE NOW, BYU DOES NOT OFFER THE CHANCE THAT A P5 CONFERENCE TEAM WOULD OFFER THEM.

YOU USE SEX, ALCOHOL AND DRUGS AS YOUR EXCUSE FOR NOT WANTING TO MAKE NECESSARY CHANGES THAT COULD PREPARE US TO GET INTO A P5 CONFERENCE WHERE THE OPPORTUNITIES COULD BE AS GREAT FOR AN ATHLETE TO GET INTO THE NFL FROM BYU THAN FROM ANY OTHER UNIVERSITY.

I THINK THIS IS NONSENSE AND I BELIEVER THAT THIS SHOWS HOW MUCH OUT OF TOUCH YOU ARE WITH THE POPULATION OUTSIDE OF THE LDS COMMUNITY.

WHY WOULD YOU THINK THAT 4-5 STAR ATHLETES ARE MORE LIKLY TO DEMAND SEX, ALCOHOL, AND DRUGS THAN THOSE LESSER TALENTED PLAYERS WITH 3,2,1,0 STARS???

IF YOU READ ALL OF MY POST, ALL OF THEM, I AM SUGGESTING THAT WE SHOULD HAVE MORE IDENTIFICATION WITHIN THE WARDS, THE STAKE CONFERENCES, AND THE GENERAL CONFERENCES, OF THOSE MEMBERS THAT MAY BE 4-5 STAR PLAYERS.

THAT BEING SAID, DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT, 4-5 STAR ATHLETES, ARE MORE LIKELY TO DEMAND SEX, DRUGS AND ALCOHOL WITHIN THE LDS WARDS, STAKE CENTERS, AND GENERAL CONFERENCES. THEN THE
3,2,1 0 STAR ATHLETES WITHIN THAT SAME COMMUNITY???

SHISH !!! WHY ARE SELF RIGHTIOUS LDS FANS, SO DEAD SET AGAINST DOING THINGS THAT COULD HELP OUR COUGARS EARN THEIR RIGHT TO ACHIEVE AT THE LEVEL WE NOW PLAY, INSTEAD OF BLAMING THE NON LDS COMMUNITY FOR BEING PREDJUDICE AGAINST US OR DEMANDING THAT THE NCAA CHANGE THEIR RULELS, NOT OUR RULES, BUT THE NCAA RULES IN ORDER TO LET US IN, OR AS WE DID IN THE PAST, THREATED LAW SUITS.

WHY DO WE, LDS BYU COUGAR FANS, DEMAND SPECIAL CONSIDERATION THAT OTHER UNIVERSITIES DO NOT GET. WHY CAN’T WE GET ALONG???

WHY MUST WE ALWAYS HAVE THE SICK NEED TO PUT OURSELVES ABOVE OTHER UNIVERSITIES AND ESPECIALLY AMONG OTHER RELIGIOUS UNIVEITIES. WHY MUST WE ALWAYS SAY THAT OTHER RELIGIOUS UNIVERSITIES ARE NOT AS MORAL AS WE ARE.

WHY DO WE WONDERY WHY WE ARE SO HATED AMONG THE REST OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD.? Why can’t we change in a postive way for the good.

PLEASE EXCUSE ALL OF MY SHOUTING WITH CAPS. I AM TOTALLY FRUSTRATED WITH THE ATTITUED ON THIS POSTING SITE.

Floyd,

I really like you, and I really like your posting, and I truly see you as an open minded person.
Perhaps I did misunderstand your post, and perhaps, I still misunderstand to a lesser degree this post, each regarding the coaching of Lavel Edwards.

In the first place, Lavel could not have been too bad or the breathern would not have allowed the Cougar Stadium to have been named after him. He could not have been too bad, or he would not be a hall of fame coach. He could not have been to bad or he would not have been loved, and publically honored in during pre game announcemnents by coaches of virtually every team we played, except Wyoming. I have witnessed this at games in Fresno State to Alabama and all other games in between.

While I agree that Fred Skousen tighted the reins,
"I don 't think he liked football and woud have been happy to stop it at BYU) While I believe that he may have been great for the University in most areas, I do not believe him to be a friend of BYU Cougar Football.

While others criticise LaVel for being too lient with the players, I admire him greatly for showing tolorance, forgiveness,
and inclusiveness with his athletes, and I use as an example, our Catholic friend and BYU Hall of Famer, Jim MacMann.

Lavel Edwards was the type of man that did his praying in the closet where he was rewarded by God. He was not the type of man to wear his religion on his sleeve where he could be rewarded by the crowd he prays in front of. To many of us, he was one of the most religious men in the Church. Histordy tells us, he was the best coach BYU ever had and we need to get back to his style of communication with athletes.

Floyd,

In your opinion, really, isn’t there more important things for our LDS community to worry about than weather we do or do not have facial hair. Jesus Christ and Brigham Young would not be aloud to attend BYU now due to their facial hair. You and I woud not be aloud to return to BYU because of our facial hair. There are also other issues in the HC that shoud be looked at.

What if the honor code stated that we must treat others as we would want others to treat us.
We must honor our father and our mother that their lives may be long upon the earth.
We must not bear false witness. We must follow all of the ten commandments.

We must be loving and inclusive to all that will follow us, be they tax collectors, leapors, prostitutes, black, white, brown, straight or LGBT, be they tall, short, fat or skinny. Jesus treated all of us with love. He denied nobody.

The scriptures say that we should judge not, lest we be judged. During the Californina election in recent history, we judged the LGBT community and now they judge us back and do all they can to put pressure on the NCAA community to keep us out of P5 conferences. With every action, there is an equal but seperate reaction. WE keep doing things and saying things that causes others to hate us. Why must we always be on the attack.

Floyd,

Out of respect for you, I will accept your account of Mckay(Rubicon). I do not know him. He has not been on this site, that I have noticed, as much as the other regulars.

Mckay, i apologize if I have missjudged you. I should know better than to have judged anyone as we are commanded not to judge, lest we be judged, and leave all judging to God. Once again, I do apologize.

Floyd, The church has had invests in Rail Roads, Radio Stations, TV networks, department stores, Coke company, and many other profit making investments, all of which, at least started , from the tithing funds. Later, the money may have come from business fund, not tithing funds, but from the business funds that originally came from tithing funds because it was a good investment.

BYU football is also a business. Yes, I agree that it is much more than a business, but indeed, it is a business.

Full seats at home equal more profit, while fewere seats at home games mean a smaller profit. High rankings and high TV ratings mean more profit while lower rankings and lower TV ratings mean less profit.

If we get a low bowl game, 750,000, to 1,250,000. due to low rankings with our winning season, there is a small profit after all cost. (if we are lucky).

High rankings and high TV ratings that COULD give us a major bowl, $14,000,000, plus, could give us a hughe profit.

If midmajor coaching pay ($1,000.000) gets you a (1,000,000,) bowl and a major coach pay of ($8,000,000) that almost guarantees a (14,000,000.+ bowl), than where is the profit and business since to pay as little as possible for a coach?

If the Coke purchase is done with business funds, why can’t BYU football be funded by business funds.
If the Coke company is purchased with tithing money, why cant BYU football be aloud to excell with tithing money?

Ok…Lay off the caps lock.

I don’t use it as an excuse. Let’s get the best players we can. Recruiting internationally, via members, etc

I think we can win consistently with recruiting classes outside of the top 25. Honestly, I think our best chance at recruiting the best players is to do just that. If we win as an underdog, like a Boise st, then we can recruit better players by virtue of winning.

I see 5-star factors as such:
-5-star kids can go anywhere they want, more so than 3, 2 and 1 stars. An offer from BYU is more enticing to a 2 star than a 5 star mathematically.
-5-star kids have the best chance to go pro and the most incentive to pick coaches and programs trusted to help them do so. Alabama, etc.
-5-star kids want to play with other 5 stars to give them the best chance to win big, so they join up at specific big name schools.
-5-star kids don’t always believe as we do and find the restrictions of an honor code stifling. For some of them, the party life is an important aspect of their decision and that makes BYU unappealing.

What special consideration am I demanding?
How am I putting myself above other Christains?
What necessary changes are you talking about exactly that would get us into a P5?

We both want BYU to win and believe it can. I am suggesting the most important thing to do that is smart coaching that understands how to find diamonds in the rough and develop players. I’m open to taking shots at 5-star players, but I think we’ll make the most difference finding the right 3 stars and a few 4 stars.

Boise St. is the model. Not Alabama.

EDIT:

After reading your other 2 posts…here are a few ideas that might help.

-BYU fans, like most people, want exciting, interesting football. Part of that is winning for sure, but another part is how you win. If your offense is boring and predictable, or if there are certain things we do that are seen as enormous mistakes we consistently commit (Like punting from their 35) that’s a problem. Football fans live for the thrills. They like to see the big passes, Interceptions, sacks.

Now personally I think BYU needs to run an aggressive offense and defense because we’re an underdog and it’s more important to try and strip the ball than deny the runner an extra yard. We don’t have the luxury of playing conservatively. That said, that’s also the kind of football people enjoy watching. It’s possible to play good offense and defense in a variety of ways, there is no one perfect strategy. But given our goal and situation, this makes sense. In some ways it’s about branding. We want to be seen as savvy and exciting. We do that by hitting the QB, picking him off and finding an offense that makes things happen. Underdogs have to be innovative and weird, but that’s also exciting.