BYU and the LGBT community

Football
141

Glen, Very nicely said. I respect the good and the pure intent. Thank you.

I live in southern California where the freeway speed limit, unless posted other wise, is 65 miles per hour. Yes, I have seen 55 posted and I have seen 70 posted, but in my area, it is mostly 65 MPH.

We usually have at least 3 lanes. The far right lane is mostly for trucks and other vehicles pulling trailers, boats etc. The speed limit here is only 55 mph. The middle lane is mostly for those that keep to the letter of the law. (Let’s say 65 mph). The inner most lane is mostly for passing and faster moving vehicles.

Remembering that 65 mph is the posted speed limit, one may find a very righteous person on speed control at 65 mph in the fastest lane, holding back all that want to pass and/or go faster.

All the flashing of lights, the honking of horns, the finger jesters, all the road rage that one could muster up, is not going to get that person to increase his speed beyond 65, nor will he pull over to the slower moving lanes, because he is right by following the letter of the law that is posted at 65 mph, and all others that want to pass or just go faster, will just have to wait because that is the law.

Yes, this very righteous person is following the letter of the law and he is to be commended.

Perhaps, it would be better if he keeps the letter of the law, stays at 65mph, but does so, in a slower moving lane, ie the middle lane or the truck lane if necessary.

In this way, he is keeping the commandment, and allowing others to be responsible for their own actions. They may get a speeding ticket, but it is there choice that nobody is forcing on them one way or the other.

It is not our responsibility to hold up miles and miles of traffic by not moving to the slower lane and let the others pass by.

We do not have to make the other cars obey the speed limit. We have police and courts to deal with those that break the law.

In the LGBT community, we need not judge. In fact, we are told to “Judge not, and leave all judging to God”.

Why can we not follow this simple commandment and move a little more to the center of the freeway, and give others the free agency to risk getting the ticket from God, or perhaps being pardoned do to circumstances?

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Because we don’t live in a bubble. Those driving 85 are putting everyone, including grandma driving 55 in a 65 zone, in danger. Speed kills. Erratic driving does too. When we don’t object to that sort of driving it may also influence our children that when they start driving they can speed too.

This not judging thing is really way over used as an excuse not to warn our neighbor’s of the impending crash and death on the freeways.

Same is true with those who desire to sin and shame everyone else for holding to the commandments and teaching them. Someone should warn LGBT’s that their potential death is the 2nd death. Or, Telestial glory instead of Celestial glory.

I agree that it’s a good thing to help LGBT persons remain in compliance with God’s commandments and not participating in their homosexual behaviors. Just as it is a good thing to help straight persons remain compliant with God’s commandments.

In our Gospel Doctrine class lesson yesterday, we are challenged to stand in holy places. As the lesson points out, this means many other places besides the temple. Church, homes and even BYU could and should be included. Why should we fall to the commotion of the world? The scriptures warn of this in the D&C prior to the 2nd Coming of Christ.

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Grasshopper,

You make some good points. I totally agree that someone driving 85 miles per hour in a 65 mph speed zone is putting other lives in danger. That would be much like those in the LGBT community flaunting, in a vulgar war, their sexuality, much like those straights, that would be doing the same thing. I think you would agree that this is the exception to the rule, and not the persons or activities that we are talking about.

I think that the real persons and the real activities that we are talking about is the person that really wants to obey that 65 mph speed limit, and is not willing to break the law in order to please someone else that has less regard for the law, but at the same time, has the curtesy to pull over to a slower moving lane, thus allowing the faster moving traffic to exercise their free agency to choose right or wrong, by perhaps extending that speed to 70 to 75 mph, if indeed that is what the flow of traffic is at the time.

I think that we are talking about the person, perhaps 10% of the world, that may be born with genes that are causing that/those persons to see sex with the opposite sex as vulgar and distasteful that the other 90% would experience if forced into a relationship of the same sex.

In either case, straight or gay, I don’t think that the issue is with the weird exception to the rule that flaunts in public, that which should be sacred in private. I think that the issue is how we deal with the cards that we were dealt with.

I really don’t believe that you meant what you said, " This not judging thing is really way over used as an excuse not to warn our neighbor’s of the …" Being the return missionary, that I believe you are, I am sure that you have far more respect for the ten commandments that the Lord gave to us to follow. I am sure that you have far more respect for the Lords commandment to “Judge not, lest ye be judged, and leave all judging to God” I am sure that you do not put a Sunday School lesson above the Lords Commandments. We all say things at times, without thinking that we wish we could have the ability to retract.

I respect you and your strong beliefs and loyalty. I would only ask that we open our hearts, yours and mine, to accept other points of view that are for the benefit of all, and not just the few. Put 4 people in a room from 4 different backgrounds, and you will have four different interpretations of the same recipe for good soup.

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As someone who has lgtb family and friends I am actually relieved that there is at least a conversation starting about it among church members. We have some close friends whose teen daughter came out about a year ago. She was on the verge of suicide because of the dealing with her own feelings vs church. Unfortunately some people said some things to her and she will most likely never go to church again.

Her parents love her and because of the view of many members of the church and the churches past and current attitudes have struggled with their faith. The father in particular has been very open in his search for truth on facebook as he has been trying to strengthen his testimony of the church, it’s culture, and its members. As I read through his thread one day I found an interesting trend by many commentors. Many youth are becoming less interested in the church because they have information at their finger tips and don’t have faith in the “all will be revealed” statements that many of us grew up hearing.

I was asked recently how I had such a strong testimony even though I have always been pretty socially liberal. As I thought about it I remembered asking a leader when I was 14 about blacks and the priesthood. I was told the that it wasn’t time for them and that the reasons would revealed at another time. I didn’t buy it and came to my own conclusion that we had a history of racism and the leaders of the church were wrong. I have little to no testimony of many old church doctrines that get people hung up today when they find out about it and the leave the church. I don’t play the game of when are they speaking as prophets or as men. I base my testimony on the teachings of Christ and of the good works of the church and its members. While some will see this as not enough to be a good mormon, I am happy with my place in the corner and sincerely hope that the members of the church welcome and love those who are both lighthouses, flickering candles, and dead flashlights.

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145

Devmo, I have some issues with your thought pattern on the blacks and the priesthood issue. If there was racism among the leaders of the church blacks would not have been allowed to join. But they were. We have no idea what the reception would have been by Southerners if those weird Mormons believed like they did and allowed full fellowship of blacks to boot. Not being able to hold the priesthood has nothing to do with eternal life. There were many times that righteous people didn’t hold the priesthood on this Earth. The purpose of the priesthood is to save all man kind, not just those who happen to hold it! If this church wasnt true, the doctrines like you just laid waste to wouldn’t matter anyway. If we really don’t hold the true priesthood, why are there any disgruntled members or non members complaining about it? If it isn’t true, be glad you don’t hold it… Sometimes the lack of understanding doctrine just surprises me. A lot of issues will be corrected in the millennium.

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Jim I understand your beliefs on this issue and respect them. I just happen to believe that racism was a large factor that influenced the church’s attitudes toward blacks and the priesthood. We had doctrine to justify the differential treatment of a group of gods children as it pertained to gaining the priesthood and attending the temple. A black man could convert and couldn’t bless his own children or wife. That breaks my heart. I agree with you that in many peoples eyes my beliefs are flawed. They are mine and I never try to push them on people because that is not my place. I was simply showing how I have a testimony despite my beliefs on past doctrines or practices. Many have left the church over similar issues and it saddens me deeply when strong men and women are no longer in our congregations.

BTW Jim, I have so much respect for you. Having read your posts over the years I know that you are honestly what is right in our church and in our world in general. I often think of you as Jonah and Scott as the whale. He chews you up, spits you out, and you two are still loving friends.

Scott, lest you take offense to being compared to a whale, you are a bad ■■■ karate whale who likes to make waves.

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Scott: In ancient Israel, only the Levites, or priests after the order of Aaron, Moses brother, could participate and hold the priesthood, including entering parts of the Temple. The priesthood isn’t under the direction of Barrack Obama or any other human being that doesn’t hold the Keys of the Priesthood and Kingdom of God on the earth today. Therefore, the Priesthood isn’t a topic of equality. It has nothing to do with equality.

We simply do not have the answer of why black men could be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost but not the Priesthood. The speculation and theories were just that. But, to say President Kimball was a bigot racist until he received specific revelation, thus saith the Lord, is really false and very judgmental. Same goes for other past prophets and apostles.

I do want to clarify one thing I believe you said too. You said that the restriction of blacks in the Priesthood was doctrine at one time. No, it was not. It was a restriction or rule. Not doctrine. There is nothing in the Doctrine and Covenants or Pearl of Great Price stating blacks could not hold the Priesthood. Nor, is it in the Book of Mormon or the Bible. But, back to the LGBT thing, there are several verses in the Bible, both OT and NT, that state homosexual behavior and acts are sin and thus doctrinal.

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Scott: And, that will be something each person has to deal with. The talk or conversation still isn’t whether homosexual acts are vile sins. The talk is how to help those who feel they are gay stay celibate with their affliction. Not whether Heavenly Father will change his doctrine which would continue to condemn those in the past while those in the future will be blessed. Makes no sense.

I sympathize with anyone who contemplates suicide or has a friend or family member do so. I have had a couple of friends attempt suicide and I worked with them to help them get back on track with their lives. But, we all have our challenges in life to prove our worthiness for Celestial Glory. We can’t just ask God to lift all challenges. Can we? Can we ask God to put us all in a cage so we can’t sin or have to deal with sin and repentance? A loving God would not subject us to lack of free agency to choose right from wrong, good or evil, virtue or vice and so on. Any more than you would cage your own child so he/she would not have to be hurt or be challenged to grow and learn.

149

Yikes! I’m glad I checked cougarfan today. I haven’t been here that often lately so to clarify things here… I am not thawk. He is a different person, who I happen to agree with mostly on the basketball posts. He understands the issues with the basketball team this past season and both of us were proven correct on many of our perspectives. But to be specific here, we are not the same person.

Having said that, thank you for your thoughts. I don’t entirely agree with thawk or you on the racism being part of the blacks receiving the priesthood issue. As a kid I never understood it and when many people/members were upset with the announcement that blacks would now be able to hold the priesthood, I was very happy about it. I think I was 15 at the time the revelation was given. My belief is that Heavenly Father does all things on his timeline, not ours. The time for the revelation was right, had it been done before then it might have had disastrous consequences for black people and the church. I don’t fault church leaders back in the day and yes, they were probably a little racist according to our standards today, but in my opinion they were doing what needed to be done… at that time.

My faith is strong, my belief in the true gospel of Jesus Christ being restored to the earth is strong. I have had some difficult trials over the course of my life, including recently just before I was called to serve as a bishop over a year ago. I try really hard to be nonjudgemental. As a bishop I try to do what is best for everyone I know or come in contact with. As a person I have always held to the belief that each one of us is important as the next because we are all children of our Heavenly Father.

Thanks for your kind words and compliments. I have never viewed your perspective or opinions as being “liberal” and I respect and agree with them frequently. The most important thing is what you feel or believe in your heart and how you treat others. We all make a lot of mistakes but if we are genuine and sincere in trying to do what is right, Heavenly Father knows that is the best we can do and that is all that really matters.

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Sorry, saw hawk and made a mistake. Since most don’t use their names like on the old board I messed up. There are only a handful of us left who have been on this board for a decade or more. It certainly lost a lot when it switched formats.

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Scott can sound kind of negative and judgemental sometimes but the basic things he says are not necessarily wrong. Heavenly Father gives us challenges to help us grow, get stronger and become more like him. If we decide to quit trying because “someone said something to us” that is too bad. Most people have tougher challenges to overcome than having something said to them. I feel bad for the girl who has decided to never go to church again because of somebody’s unkind words. Church is where we develop and nurture our relationship with the Savior, not some knucklehead who makes a stupid comment. I hope, at some point, she understands that.

I know we can all do better but that fact will not change in this life. We have to learn how to deal with it.

152

Isn’t that the truth…

FYI - I have always enjoyed your posts and perspectives.

153

DevMo, It takes courage or living enough years on this planet to speak your mind without care that you will be judged by others on these matters. I too have often thought what it would have been like to be black and try to be an active member of the church prior to 1978. After years and years of stories, policy and reasons why blacks could not receive the priesthood Bruce R M finally came out after the change and said, “We Were Wrong”. It does not change the past, it does not make right what was wrong, that is what the Civil War was all about. But it did open my eyes as to what is doctrine and what is church policy.

As for the Church and gays: Elder Nielsen told the youth in a fireside the following:

That led to the Utah-based faith’s new policy regarding same-sex Mormon couples — that they would be labeled “apostates” and that their children would not be allowed baptism and other LDS religious rites until they turn 18.
“Each of us during that sacred moment felt a spiritual confirmation,” Nelson, next in line for the Mormon presidency, told the faith’s young adults in the first official explanation of the hotly debated policy’s origins. “It was our privilege as apostles to sustain what had been revealed to President Monson.”
Nelson explained that revelation from the Lord to his servants is a sacred process.
“The [three-member] First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles counsel together and share all the Lord has directed us to understand and to feel, individually and collectively,” he said. “And then, we watch the Lord move upon the president of the church to proclaim the Lord’s will.”
Elder Nelson also said that this is a time for choosing:

The safest course, Nelson advised, is to heed the words of Mormon leaders, particularly Monson.
“Prophets see ahead. They see the harrowing dangers the adversary has placed, or will yet place, in our path,” Nelson said. “Prophets also foresee the grand possibilities and privileges awaiting those who listen with the intent to obey.
” … You may not always understand every declaration of a living prophet,” he added. “But when you know a prophet is a prophet, you can approach the Lord in humility and faith and ask for your own witness about whatever his prophet has proclaimed.”
Nelson, who became president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles last year, warned his listeners to beware of those who might tear down their faith.
“The somber reality is that there are ‘servants of Satan’ embedded throughout society,” he said. “So be very careful about whose counsel you follow.”

Then I followed the link: Geoff B. on January 11, 2016 at 11:38 am said:
Here is Elder Nelson’s entire talk so you can see it in context.
https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/watch/worldwide-devotional/2016/01?lang=eng

Tapped on it and got this from lds.org
https://www.lds.org/error.xqy?lang=eng&r=nc

Digging around the church website also shows what all references of the devotional have been removed. What does this say?

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Thanks for the insights Fish. I always enjoy reading your posts.

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Bruce R. McConkie meant all the reasons why black’s couldn’t hold the priesthood “We were all wrong.” Not that the ban was wrong or the Prophets (first presidencies) were wrong or God was wrong. If any of them were wrong then there would have been a break in the Church succession which goes against OT prophecy and the D&C.
Also, if it was racist reasons, there were black’s that had received the priesthood before the ban. One was a member of the 1st quorum of the 70’s I believe. If it was racist then they would have lost the priesthood too. But that didn’t happen. The 70 remained a 70.
I think Jim is right. The Lord was going to move his church forward and guide it in these the latter days. The Lord knows what may have happened if he didn’t ban black’s for a time. They still will receive their celestial potential. After all, you do have a testimony of the entire Plan of Salvation, correct?

156

I provided the links. I asked the question.

What does it mean when the church has deleted Elder Nielsen’s fireside talk? Who are the people in the church making that decision? Does that mean that they do not agree with Elder Nielsen, the president of the quorum of the 12, said. Does it mean that he made it up? Does it mean that this is his own idea? That the church is not on board with it?

157

BevMo,

quote: “As someone who has lgtb family and friends I am actually relieved that there is at least a conversation starting about it among church members”.

In the 1970’s I moved into a community of Los Angeles County, named, “Silver Lake”. It appeared to be a strong Middle Class Neighborhood, with beautiful old homes, each around 4500’ square. The neighborhood seemed to have much charm. Other than that, this is all I knew about the neighborhood and I bought a beautiful old home and moved in.

Soon after moving in, I was greeted at my door with neighbors bringing flowers, baskets of fruit, and invitations to the next week end community parties. I was really dense, as it was not until the second party that I attended that I realized that I was the only STRAIGHT in the entire neighborhood.

This was a neighborhood of doctors, attorneys, scientist, and some actors and actresses or performers. Their homes were neat, clean and elegant. Their social graces were among the best I have witnessed. These were highly respected professional good people.

What they were not is what follows:
They were not flaunters. They were not nasty. They were not low class. They were not, what a significant amount of STRAIGHTS think they are, generally speaking.

It reminds me of what someone below posted about the Blacks. There is nothing doctrine that says that Blacks could not hold the Priesthood. No where in the Old Testament, No where in the New Testament of the Bible, No where in the Pearl of Great Price, no where in the D&C, and no where in the BOM says that Blacks could not hold the priesthood, and yet, before 1978, in the CoJCoLDS, said they could not.

In the bible there are references that indicate that God found displeasure in the behavior of the Gays, but also in some of the behavior of the straights, and also of those lying with animals etc. WE now single out the behavior of some Gays and generalize that to the behavior of all in the LGBT community. Perhaps in a few more decades, or perhaps not that far away, we may find that our stand on the LG BT community was never really Church Doctrine, but something that we can not explain, but only have speculation about.

I find it refreshing that indeed we do have some, perhaps not many, but some socially liberal members of the Church. Far Right conservatives come across as feeling that they , and they alone, have the only right answers and solutions and any that do not agree with them are less good or just flat out wrong.
I think that the more liberal minded members seem to be more open minded and have a greater ability to reason rather than accept blindly because someone says they should.

158

We are finally having a discussion about “what” LDS LBGT members are and finally getting away from stereotypes’. What my son “is”…a doctor, married to a doctor who works in the CDC, flies around the world working to solve the world’s epidemics. Ebola and Zika outbreaks have been very tough to handle because they generally are in the least sanitary, under developed areas with raw sewage oozing along neighborhoods. What my son is…he goes to a church, sings in a nationally known choir,http://www.oursongatlanta.org/,

He could have “believed” the dribble that members like to dole out about how being gay is a sin against nature or what’s next, bestiality, he could have believed he was “broken” and ended his life as so many LDS gay youth do…but what he chose to do, as do many gay members of our church…they leave the church and it’s closed mindedness behind. Let’s just face the facts, there is no place in our church for a gay person. The idea of spending your life by yourself is unimaginable or the idea that "you go out and find a member of the opposite sex, who understands you, and you end up ruining their life because 90% of those marriages don’t make it and trust me when I say this, “A gay man is the most sensitive person in the world” and the last thing they want to do is hurt someone else. We just don’t have any solutions for a gay person and the gospel so the easy fix is to leave and live your life the best you can.

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The following is the heading to Romans Chapter 1 in the BIBLE:
“The gospel is the power of God unto salvation through Jesus Christ–The wrath of God rests on those guilty of murder, homosexual practices, fornication, and other sins if the guilty do not repent.”
The following are just two doctrinal passages from canonized scripture in which the heading of Romans Chapter 1 was referring to:
“26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”
Enough of this idea that homosexual acts are not sin, doctrinally. However, how we treat people and apply this doctrine to our work and the glory of God is up to God, not our meager minds and imperfect hearts. We leave this up to the prophet of God.
Also, you are wrong about blacks never being able to hold the priesthood in biblical times. In fact, only Levites for the most part after Moses could hold any priesthood. There is also a question of whether anyone up to the time of Christ held the Melchizedek Priesthood. This means that there were times when not only blacks couldn’t hold the priesthood in biblical times and their after, but Hispanics, Asians, European whites and 11 tribes of Israel couldn’t hold the priesthood! Same thing between the time of Adam down to Jacob (Israel). So, it is even doctrinal for God to restrict the priesthood and limit to only certain groups of people at any certain time. Why black’s in our dispensation? We don’t have the reason. All reasons that were given were speculation and BRM said were wrong.
My opinion with the priesthood is that it had nothing to do with worthiness as there were black’s who received the priesthood and it was not taken from them. It was in my opinion necessary due to the time period and the ability of the Church to move forward because of the evil hearts of man and slavery that would have destroyed the young and very small church.
Homosexual acts have as the Lord gave to Paul are sinful acts if carried out. If not carried out the person isn’t condemned for their condition whether reprobate mind or biological. So, the Church now tries to help these individuals remain without acting upon their perceived natural feelings. Just like we are taught and assisted when straights want to act out their natural feelings while committing fornication like adultery or sex acts before marriage.

I’ll also agree with you that just because someone is a sinner doesn’t mean they can’t be good neighbors and good patriotic citizens too. And, up until recently, most didn’t flaunt their “vile affections” in public, even in their own homes. I know this because in the past I have been in gay homes and witnessed this to be true. But, this good behavior doesn’t change the bad behavior.

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Grasshopper,

“The wrath of God rests on those guilty of murder, homosexual practices, “fornication, and other sins” if the guilty do not repent.”

Funny, we each refer to at least one of the scriptures to make our point which in this case, differer (yours from mine. visa versa).

I never suggested in any way that homosexual practices was or was not a sin. What I did suggest is that homosexuality is not the only sexual sin, yet that is the sin that we focus on, putting the other sexual sins aside.

7 Bible results for “ Sexual sin.” Showing results 1-7.

Bible search results
Numbers 5:13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act),

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 Corinthians 7:2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 Corinthians 12:21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Hebrews 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Revelation 2:14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Lot’s two daughter’s slept with Lott’s father and became pregnant. This was fornication, not homosexuality. I am not excusing homosexuality, but instead, stating that homosexuality is not the only sexual sin. Yet, it is the homosexuality that we focus on at a degree that we do not focus on with other sexual sins.