BYU and the LGBT community

Football
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I suppose you feel a need to speak out against my position by insinuating that maybe I am guilty of being one of these “far too many LDS members”. Well, that “couldn’t be further from the truth”. If you read my post and response to “fish” or Chris, who has a son who is gay, you will see that I don’t hold that position and I have told him there is a definite place in the plan of salvation for his son. I added that his son has no responsibility to please anyone but his Heavenly Father, as we all do. Unfortunately we lose sight of that fact and get caught up in pleasing everyone else (including ourselves) and forget our Heavenly Father.

PS - sorry I used the proclamation on the family to help explain the importance and role of the family in our society…

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Burton, I agree that we need to just treat people with respect and kindness. We are all sinners and we don’t need others pointing the finger at us and they don’t need the finger pointed at them. We know what we need to do to improve and so do other LDS members. I think the way you motivate people to come unto Christ and to change their lives is to introduce them to gospel experiences where they feel the spirit and a sense of hope and joy and love. We have plenty of BYU students that are gay and don’t feel a lot of hope for their future. I feel it is important to reach out to them and make them feel loved and accepted and give them a way to feel hope about their eternal well being just as Elder Renlund did in his conference talk in April when he said " I can emphatically state that because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, ultimately, in the eternal scheme of things, there will be no unfairness. “All that is unfair about life can be made right.”

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Sorry Jim! Hope I didn’t offend. There have been a ton of posts this week and I missed the one’s you mentioned.

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Why not? and what future are you referring to? Their immediate future or their eternal future? One of the most confounding issues is this constant claim of unfairness, intolerance and hopelessness. I guess I’m not understanding it… maybe 10 years ago but today?

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Glenn-it’s a tough subject for me-like I’ve said before I’ve known gay soldiers in the military-known gay women and men it civilian life. I do not understand their attraction but then I have a lot of non-lds friends that don’t conduct their affairs like I would and they probably don’t really understand why I don’t go out for a beer with them or closet myself on Sundays or attempt not to use profanity or any number of obviously strange things I do, but ultimately we can hang out and play a little golf or basketball and get along In this turbulent world. So ultimately I think the only sane thing we can do is get along and try not to be judgemental. I actually try and make myself and my home comfortable for everyone and maybe we should just try and get along better. I still remember the disciples when they tried to prevent the little children from coming unto the Master. Is it just ironic that Christ was crucified between two thieves. I’m comfortable just letting God pass our a fair justice for all. I don’t have the answers-I’m not smart enough-so I’m just going to try and be nice to everyone even if I don’t particularly feel like it.

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I don’t get “offended”. There are so many perspectives and opinions out there and the problem is that most of them are following after some secular basis. People just don’t really have the desire to follow Heavenly Father unless it fits their way of thinking.

It is a fine line…

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What future am I referring to? If you listen to video produced by the BYU gay kids, you can get a pretty good idea about the issues of self loathing and low self esteem they feel. They see their straight friends getting married, having a family and on the path of most mainstream LDS people. Many LDS members think they are evil and perverse. They wonder iif God loves them. Should they try to live a heterosexual lifestyle and get married? Would that be fair to their spouse? Is there any hope for them in the next life? These are some of the things that suck the hope out of them.

There are so many perspectives and opinions out there and the problem is that most of them are following after some secular basis. People just don’t really have the desire to follow Heavenly Father unless it fits their way of thinking.

Let me back up to the original posts I made. There are secular movements in play and anti-discrimination laws that have past that may force BYU to revisit its policy about BYU gays. My original point was that if the HC needed to be changed to avoid violating discrimination laws, they should be proactive and just do it as long as it doesn’t conflict with our doctrine. My empathy for these social groups really only pertains to the LG groups rather than the whole LGBT. I am disturbed by the breakdown of the family (especially among blacks). I am baffled by the fact that some high school students buy into the idea that gender is nothing more than the group you identify with (male, female, nuetral, ect.). Every good thing that has happened in my life I attribute to the Church and efforts to follow Heavenly Father. It has never been my intention to come across as secular or critical of the Church doctrines. I really do feel we can be compassionate and reach out to BYU gays and lift their burdens without compromising our positions.

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108

(Jim): “. . . People just don’t really have the desire to follow Heavenly Father unless it fits their way of thinking.” I, personally, think this way, a good deal of the time. But I am also of the opinion of treating other people - ALL other people - with kindness and charity, as much as possible. While I struggle with both side of the issue, I also remember the great flood, the Israelites being ordered to kill an entire nation (women and children included) as but two instances in the scriptures of death without regard to innocents who could have been loved, cared for and supported. How much love and support is ok before it becomes aiding and abetting? Or fitting a perspective (rationalization for one). Are the scriptures only for that time or do they pertain to us today? If they pertain to us today, which ones or how much, what percentage? I struggle with these issues as I have a family member who is gay. Just thoughts running through my mind as I read these posts.

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Actually I wasn’t thinking about what you said when I wrote that. I was thinking in generalities of where a lot of people are coming from in today’s world. The need to do what’s best for oneself, which is usually tied to worrying about what everyone else thinks. It really had nothing to do with you.

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Roy, I’m doing the same thing you are. I am trying to keep an open mind about these issues and look at them from different perspectives. If I am going to err on one side or the other, the safest thing to do is err on the side of compassion. One of the things I appreciate about the Church is that when issues arise in society, the brethren go to the Lord for clarification and then we get the counsel either in General Conference or over the pulpit. I’m thinking specifically about changes in policy on polygamy and extending the priesthood to all worthy males. Regarding gay members, Elder Packer probably was one of the most vocal of the General Authorities about the gay issue in his day. I remember hearing his talk in General Conference that sparked gay protests on Temple Square. I am sure there were some discussions behind the scenes among the twelve. The result was that Elder Packer changed his talk. The version we got in the Ensign was not the same version he gave over the pulpit. I’ll provide the link at the bottom if you want to read about it. The article also points out that the Church’s stance is that the Family Proclamation is considered a guide and not revelation or scripture. These incidents simply confirm in my mind that the brethren are praying for guidance and that as these issues evolve in our society, the brethren will continue to seek guidance and even correct their own views to be sure to give the members the Lord’s will on the matter. My views on the gay issue have changed and evolved over the years as I have realized that I needed to correct misconceptions I had on the issue. I am sure your perspective has changed to some degree having a family member who is gay. Those who would criticize that changing our views on the topic are akin to caving in on the issue just to be politically correct are missing the point. Its more about being open minded and correcting misconceptions we unwittingly held about the issue.

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111

I hate to jump in. This whole thing about LGBT is throwing me off and confusing. Many, many times I say their something wrong with their head. I like one person saying this gay is a “MYTH” and I say it is “All In Their Mind.” I had a cousin which I had no way of knowing if he was gay (nonmember) and he brought his boyfriend to our Wedding Reception. I was shocked seeing them and some year later my cousin died of aides (HIV). Good grief what a way to end his life and not being educated about HIV and his brother died of “Broken Heart” whatever it was.

As for BYU Honor Code, I don’t pay attention what details they put in except when I sign that contract and I respect their rules. I use to have a mustache but when I came to BYU, I’m clean shaved. Why can’t they respect the HC? I don’t think they should change or modify the HC layout.

This whole thing going on in our country government is screwed up! Those LGBT people are pushing and shoving at our throats has gone TOO FAR! I feel bad to our young children going to have to deal with them make me sick.

As for BIG XII, either we get in or stay Independent. That LGBT letter that they sent to those schools won’t matter in any how.

Let the football season begin. 14 MORE DAYS TO GO. GO COUGARS!!!

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All three.

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I’d like to stress the importance of gender in the preexistence.

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The Proclamation on the Family was issued right near the beginning of the LBG marriage movement.
My impression is that at that time the term gender had not been analyzed and transformed to its current meaning in academia. And the current meaning in academia is used increasingly often in common conversation…
The language is always changing–especially for key terms of political issues.

My impression is that the lbg community is made up of folks who are genetically speaking hard wired for same sex attraction, some who are genetically disposed for same sex attraction, and then some who were environmentally induced.
I think the current science supports the distinctions anyway.
I’m also certain that the science on the issue will change and think that it will end up with something like a bell curve though I don’t know the high point or the particular shape of the bell at present.

But regarding the Proclamation on the Family. Gender being an eternal principle leaves open the possibility that the genetically hard wired were an actual gender in the preexistence…perhaps just a gender that it took modern liberty to allow to be recognized…though their are societies in the past that did have words denoting more than the two genders western society has generally privileged.

Clearly that was not the intent of the proclamation at the time it was issued. But it would not be the first, or last time, that the words of prophets have been discovered to mean differently than the prophet or the original audience understood the words to mean.

And even if the two gender meaning in mind at the time of the Proclamation turns out to be the eternal meaning…I’m uncertain how that informs the question of how to deal with the current political hot buttons that do recognize more than the traditional two… which is why I queried how you connect the Proclamation to question of LGBT, the honor code, and BYU admittance to the B12.

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The movement began well before the proclamation. The ERA amendment was a wolf in sheepskin attempt by the LGBT movement back then to hide behind NOW and the ERA amendment. It had nothing to do with equal pay for women and the brethren knew that then.
As far as what we were like in the pre-existence, do you really think if there were gay spirits there that God would hand down a commandment and law to Moses and Paul to NOT perform homosexual acts? That they were vile evil sins like into murder and adultery? I would say that if there were vile and wicked homosexual spirits that they are all with the third of the spirits that followed Satan currently tempting mankind. Doing a real good job on you I might add.

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Jim, you miss understood the premiss. Perhaps, I did not write it clear enough.
I totally agree that with the present leadership, one or the other, that all of God’s attention
needs to be focused of keeping man from blowing each other up and destroying the earth.
And that, Jim, is why I suggested that God, may trust the leadership of the Church to make decisions i.e honor code and policy etc leaving the major problems of the world for God’s total effort in order to keep manykind from destroying itself.

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Sr_Burton, our thinking is far more the same than it is different. I have the same concerns that you express above.

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118

Quote:
We then are in agreement that sins remain sins but the way we handle those who have sinned changes. Any organization in its beginnings will be run strictly and later the rules may be relaxed or how they are punished if the rules are broken.
And you are correct that the Lord will be the mediator and final judge. I do have questions about this statement: Would a person born with an overwhelming attraction for the same sex be judged as you and I would be by a God of of infinite intelligence.

l like very much the postings of grasshopper and of Sr_Burton. I also like most of what I hear from fish and Scott. Glen is always very good in my opinion. Most, not all, but most of what Texcoug says, I agree with. I like busdriver a lot. I have learned from each of you. It is much easier to learn from those that objective, non defensive, and non subjective. You all make intelilgent post and I do appreciate it.

I totally agree with grasshopper’s quote above. I have been trying to say this same thing as the quote, but grasshopper does it much better in a much more acceptable way than I am able to do and I thank you grasshopper for this contribution.

119

Since there seem to be a lot of posts about the position of the Church on same-sex attraction, it is probably worthwhile to post the church’s actual statement on the issue:

“There is no change in the doctrinal position that sexual relations between people of the same sex are sinful.”

“It is not a sin simply to feel attraction to another person of the same sex. Some faithful members of the Church experience those attractions yet participate in the Church without breaking the Lord’s commandments. They serve missions and attend the temple. The Church teaches its members to embrace these brothers and sisters and encourage them in their faithful lives in the Church.”

If we love and show compassion to BYU gay students, we are only following what our Church leaders have instructed us to do. I really don’t understand why some feel they need to speak out as if same-sex attraction is a sin and that LDS gays are somehow evil. Sexual intimacy is a sin but not same-sex attraction. If you feel same-sex attraction is sinful, you are against the position of the Church and you are the one guilty of the greater sin–judging unrighteously.

Regarding the Family Proclamation, some of you have referred to it as scripture or revelation. That is likely because you heard it at General Conference from Elder Packer who said:

“The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued ‘The Family: A Proclamation to the World,’ the fifth proclamation in the history of the church. It qualifies according to scriptural definition as a revelation, a guide that members of the church would do well to read and to follow.”

However, he subsequently corrected his statement to the following:

“The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued ‘The Family: A Proclamation to the World,’ the fifth proclamation in the history of the church. It is a guide that members of the church would do well to read and to follow.”

The Family Proclamation does refer to us having gender in the pre-mortal life. I do believe that is true. But, it isn’t hard for me to believe that once we are born in mortality, we have mental, spiritual, and physical challenges to deal with as a part of our mortal estate. Some children are born with genetic abnormalities and physicians have to intervene surgically and decide whether the gender is male or female. They may be on hormone therapy for the rest of their lives to develop the physical attributes of the specific gender. Some people have to deal with same-sex attraction. Some people have to deal with other hard challenges such as depression. We are taught that we will be resurrected in our perfect form. Many of the challenges people have to face in mortality will be resolved on the other side of the veil. I believe Elder Renlund’s statement that in the eternal scheme of things, there will be no unfairness. I interpret that to mean that there will be a lot of stuff sorted out on the other side of the veil and we just need to faithfully endure our lot in life,

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Glen,

I really like your post regarding the Church’s stand on the LGBT issue.

I am also happy that we are having so much conversation about it. The more conversation about it, the more likely the GA’s will notice. The more they notice, the more likely they will be open for new inspiration and a willingness to make adjustments in procedure. (Not doctrine, but procedure adjustments) They can change procedure, without changing doctrine.

Many, many, many studies has shown that world wide, including, but not limited to the USA, approximately 10% of all of us are born with G/L tendency. Some more than others. More controllable more than others.

Since I have 29 grandchildren and 12 great grandchildren, that means that about 4 of them were probably born G/L.

They would never confess to me or to their parents or to their brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles or even closest friends that all believe so deeply in the truthfulness of the Gospel.

None of the four liked dating. But to please the family and the Church, they occasionally did but rarely with the same person more than a few times.

I am sure that they feel guilt. The Bible says that in as much as ye have adultly in your heart, you have already committed adultly. That carries over into all sins.

I could point out those in my family, but I won’t, the four that probably has that stigma.
None of them married until late in life. (30’s) I believe they did it so they would not be identified or exposed to other members of the Church and family that has all of the same Church values. My heart goes out to the fish family on this board.

One that I expect, still lives at home. He never dates. He doesn’t want to. The others eventually married and had at least one child.

I wonder how we heterosexual men would feel or handle the situation if we were forced to have sex with another man. I think that I would die vomiting before I stopped vomiting.
How can we expect a G/L to feel any different having sex with someone that they did not
feel natural with.

As a heterosexual, I think that I would consider, suicide before I could go to bed with another man. How can we expect it to be different for G/L community. In fact, far too many have already committed suicide.

Without changing doctrine, we need a way to change procedure for those not fortunate to be born straight like us. I don’t know how it can be, but there are enough people a lot smarter than I that can figure out a way if indeed there is a will.

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