BYU and the LGBT community

[Ronald_Uharriet]

Roy,

I was drafted at the end of the Korean War during the end of my 1953-54 school year which was on the 1/4 system at that time. When I came home from the military, I already had a wife and Child, with 3 more to follow within the next 3 years.

I missed going on a mission, but all of my children did, as did all of my grand children to date; as did most of our relatives.

Yes, Roy, I am aware that we are rapidly approaching 17 million world wide with about 8 million of them in the United States. I also realize that California, where I live, we have more Mormons than Utah. I realize that we have members in each state of the Union. Yes, I know that tin Hawai, we are the second largest Church in the state. Second only to the Catholics. Why must you partonize me?

@Roy

The church opposing Prop 8 was not pushing or forcing our religion on others.

When the Church, home based in Utah, and it’s University, aslo home based in Utah, made it’s push into California elections demanding that marriage is defined between one man and one woman because that is what they believed, and the Church and the University from Utah, won that election until it was over turned by the Supreme Court, just what is it Roy, that the Church and University was doing if it was not forcing their religion on those that did not want to acccept it?

@Roy

In this country any group, be they religious or non-religious, have the right to express their concerns about policies that would impact the church.

@Roy

We had a right to oppose or defend that Prop or any other Prop based on the possible impact to the Church,

Roy, you may or may not be correct, (Having the right to cross state lines to affect an election that is being held in a state that is not our own state) I am not 100% positive one way or the other, but I seriously doubt that any people , morallly, has the right, outside of their own state to try to affect the outcome of elections in another state. We see the Koke (sp) brothers doing it in each state, spending millions of dollars to buy those elections, but that does not make it morally right. I still hope that morality still means something to us.

Yes Roy, and as retribution, the LGBT community, that we greatly offended, by trying to keep them from what they strongly believed in, (Prop 8), they now feel that they have the right to try to keep us out of the Pac 12, the Big 12, and all other Power Conferences that we will ever try to get into.

So to speak Roy, What’s good for the Goose is good for the Gander. As ye sew, so shall ye reep. Do onto others, as ye would have them do onto you. My point Roy, is not to take the side of the LGBT community over the LDS community. That is not my point at all. My point is that we need to be much, much, much more aware of the harm we do to ourselves before we try to shift gears before putting down the clutch. I am sure that you are old enought to remember the stick shifts which we use to enjoy in our youth.

@Roy

It would really be better if the church is run by the polls and thus policy and doctrine be changed when the polls indicated changes in public sentiment. Become the Church of the Public Sentiment.

Roy, would it be better to bury our heads in the sand, and say that (right or wrong) we are right because we have a policy, and regardless of what the other 300 million people (+ -) believe in the United States, it just doesn’t matter what they believe or what their policy is becasus we are right and all that do not agree with us is wrong? Is this what we are??
I hope not.

[Ronald_Uharriet]

Roy,

You are right. You do not understand. That’s okay.

[JCoug]

@Ronald_Uharriet

When the Church, home based in Utah, and it’s University, aslo home based in Utah, made it’s push into California elections demanding that marriage is defined between one man and one woman because that is what they believed, and the Church and the University from Utah, won that election until it was over turned by the Supreme Court, just what is it Roy, that the Church and University was doing if it was not forcing their religion on those that did not want to acccept it?

[quote=“Ronald_Uharriet, post:41, topic:6868”] Yes, Roy, I am aware that we are rapidly approaching 17 million world wide with about 8 million of them in the United States. I also realize that California, where I live, we have more Mormons than Utah. I realize that we have members in each state of the Union. Yes, I know that tin Hawai, we are the second largest Church in the state. Second only to the Catholics.
[/quote]

In one paragraph you talk about the fact there are more members in California and more outside the US than inside.and in another you say the “utah church” did this or did that and somehow this “utah based church” was forcing their religion on those that did not want to accept it. These statements seem contradictory/hypocritical in nature. This “utah church” is bigger outside of utah than it is inside of utah. It’s like calling the catholic church a “rome, italy church” and then saying they have no right to urge their members everywhere else to support the things they believe in.

Kind of confusing…

[JCoug]

It is good reading but I’m not sure how accurate it is. It’s funny how people like to categorize… as if every member of the lds church fits into one of 3 categories.

Having said that, I hope I find myself in the third category as well.

[Ronald_Uharriet]

Jim,

No intent to confuse you. Let me break it down for you.

1. Roy was trying to let me know that the Church was in more states than Utah, or perhaps, he was just trying to
   Patronize me. My words regarding the Church World Wide, was to let Roy know that I was aware of it, since my family
   has served missions in Argentina, Uraquay, Mexico, Germany, South Africa, Canada, and Ohio,

2. When I talk about the Utah based Church and it’s Utah based University, (BYU), I was first talking about the Chuch
   headquartes located in Salt Lake City, which you and every other Mormon is well aware of.(No patronizing intended).

   When I was speaking of the University home based in Provo, Utah, (Yes I know about Ricks/BYU Idaho, and BYU
   Hawaii, ), I was speaking about BYU Provo, which I am sure that you are aware of.

3. When I say that the Prop 8 invasion from the Utah based Church and the Utah based University, owned by the
   Church, BYU, orchestrated that Utah invasion into California elections, it did far more harm than any good that it did.

4. Living in California, and listening to neighbors and others that knew my relationship with the Church and the University,
   put a real strain on our relationship. (Not so much the voted issue as the out of state interference), Some that use to
   watch on TV with me at my house, the BYU games that I did not attend, and watched in their own homes, cheering
   BYU on, during those games that I did attend at the stadium. Most of their desire to cheer for BYU doesn’t exist
   anymore.

   BYU sports was a door opener for them to hear more about the Church. That door is now closed for some
   of them. Two of them were members of the Calvary Church and their Church now spends more time taking hate for
   Mormons that they talkabout love for Jesus. That Church now lables us as sect and not a religon. A side affect of all
   of this is that I USE to try to have respect for all religions and dwell more on what we had in common and less on what
   made us different, realizing that both are important. Now I find it impossible to respect the religon that has so much
   hate for us now. That hurts me, and yes, to me, that is important.

[Ronald_Uharriet]

Continuation/not a reply.

Jim, I am sorry that part of many sentences has been cut off which makes it even more confusing than
before. Instead of putting words on the next line, if the sentence was to long for the line, it was just cut off’
and admitted which makes it difficult for understanding. I am hoping that this is just a glitch. I love this
site.

[aro]

I have no idea which one of the 3 categories of “Mormons” I fit into. Probably a combination of 1 and 3 or more likely none of them. I don’t fit into number 2. I don’t find myself troubled over the minutiae that people in category 2 often get caught up in. If you have a witness from the Holy Ghost that Joseph Smith was a prophet, the Book of Mormon is true, and that Jesus Christ stands at the head of The Church then small contradictions don’t matter.

This discussion started over the LGBT (I wonder what letter will be added next, another B for bestiality) community putting pressure on the Big 12 to ban BYU from inclusion over the honor code. To be frank I am finding that some in the LGBT community have become the bullies they always complain about. They want the whole world to redefine everything to legitimize, and even celebrate, their behavior, ie: from the right to use any restroom they want, to redefining marriage, to forcing the Boy Scouts to change their standards, and now to ban BYU from the Big 12 over an honor code that prohibits the practice of those lifestyles. They won’t hesitate to use the courts to get what they want even if one of their lawsuits puts somebody out of business. In fact, in many of those suits businesses were sought out by the gay community for the very purpose of intimidation and to make an example of Christian business persons who they knew would not render their services in same sex marriages. Just how big of a percentage of the population does the LGBT community make up. 2%, 5%? I have no idea and have no idea how it is tracked, but it seems they make up a very small percentage of the population but they want the entire populace to submit to every one of their demands with a smile.

Each and every one of the LGBT lifestyles are in violation of God’s laws and go against nature. That said we should treat them with respect and love without accepting the behavior. We should oppose laws and societal changes that give moral legitimacy to immoral lifestyles. I would be appalled if BYU grovels to the LGBT community just to gain acceptance to an athletic conference. I think it is correct to assure them that they will be welcome, safe, and respected while visitors at BYU but anything more than that would amount to inappropriate pandering.

I wasn’t sure whether to post this or not. It is risky business to speak out on this issue but the problem is that a certain segment of the LGBT movement isn’t about being treated with respect it is about forcing their agenda on everybody else through political pressure and the courts.

[Roy]

(Ron): "When the Church, home based in Utah, and it’s University, aslo home based in Utah, made it’s push into California elections demanding that marriage is defined between one man and one woman because that is what they believed, and the Church and the University from Utah, won that election until it was over turned by the Supreme Court, just what is it Roy, that the Church and University was doing if it was not forcing their religion on those that did not want to acccept it?
Me: Ron, you use such pejorative words like: “push,” “demanding,” “forced.” The Church, NOT BYU did not push, demand or force anything. They simply supported a certain stance on legislation in California as they had a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to do so. And if you, Ron, want to punish the Church for that stance, continue to go for it. If LGBTQ people want to lawfully oppose the Church or BYU then let them go forward with it, as they have been doing.

(Ron): “I seriously doubt that any people , morallly, has the right, outside of their own state to try to affect the outcome of elections in another state. We see the Koke (sp) brothers doing it in each state, spending millions of dollars to buy those elections, but that does not make it morally right. I still hope that morality still means something to us.” Me: Ron, this is so ignorant that it boggles the mind that you wrote this. The Church does not have the moral right (with millions of Mormons residing in and paying taxes in California) to support a stance on legislation in California that has serious impact for the well being of the Church and its members but the LGBTQ folks have the moral right to reach out of their state to another state (Texas) to punish BYU which is in a third state. You cite the Koch brothers and you do not know that this kind of thing happens in all 50 states by Democrats also. Your stance about not POing groups of people opposed to the gospel is written about many times in the scriptures (including the Bible). Do you REALLY BELIEVE that the saints should have cow-towed to religious persecution. Then all kinds of Mormon history and endeavors would have been quashed and the Church would not be HQd in Utah. If would be a sect somewhere back east and would not have many of the Mormon standard things we know and revered today: The Temple, temple ceremonies, temple clothing, temple marriage - just to name a few. Your citing the Koch brothers nails down my continuing belief that you are a card carring leftist, liberal Democrat who can only spout DNC type talking points. And Ron, I understand well that trying to discuss with you is like spitting into a tornado. Its useless and senseless and again I am done responding to you. Prattle on.

[Harold]

I agree in general principle with much of your post.
However,

[quote=“Roy, post:48, topic:6868”]
Your citing the Koch brothers nails down my continuing belief that you are a card carring leftist, liberal Democrat who can only spout DNC type talking points. [/quote]
There are card carrying, temple recommend carrying members, who serve in the kingdom in time-consuming responsible positions, who also work at the DNC and who regularly write those talking points. Thinking church membership equates with thinking or spouting Republic politics is simply making an egregious presumption… Being a believing Republican and being an active believing member of the Lord’s church are not synonomous.

It is quite possible to discuss how BYU and how its honor code should deal with the current political situation without calling, or even coming close to calling those with opposing opinions derogations…
Most of this discussion, including most of your post, dealt with the issue or surrounding issues without descending into ad hominem.

[Roy]

I agree with you Harold, sentence by sentence. I don’t care if a person is a Democrat, Republican or other card carrying political persuasion who are REASONABLE, rational and do not take their political persuasions past the point of ridiculousness . However, I do not agree with specific regard to Ron. He and I have a history together on this board. He can or anyone can, as far as I am concerned, disagree with the Churches stand on any issue if done with reason and intelligence.

(Roy): “Ron, you use such pejorative words like: “push,” “demanding,” “forced.” The Church, NOT BYU did not push, demand or force anything.” I maintain that this is not rational, reasonable not intelligent commentary by Ron. I stand by that, notwithstanding your attempt to take me to the woodshed, so to speak. The words; “push,” “demanding,” and “forced” is not what happened with regard the Church’s involvement with Prop 8 in California. So I stayed away from starting a commentary with Ron but he initiated one and I have responded. But finding him not reasonable nor rational, again, I stated my belief and indicated that I would no longer engage in correspondence with him. At least on this forum, I find myself often frustrated with Ron’s rhetoric from a historical standpoint and got myself entangled with him again. BTW Harold, I am not a Republican. I have voted, in Utah, for Democrats, Republicans, Independents or other persuasions as I assessed the political landscape locally, state-wide and nationally. Be reasonable and rational with your (the general your) opposition and I am fine. I have made logical arguments in other forums, that do not represent my personal viewpoints to stimulate conversation. Harold, thanks for the offer to take me to the woodshed but I don’t need it and have more important things to do.

[fish]

This is a very interesting discussion indeed and NOT directed at Roy, but to every person here as a general statement. I guess that I would have been the hardwired “God does not create gay people” 6 years ago. Then my oldest son, a doctor, came out. It took me maybe 3 years to get away from my conviction and accept that God does make gay people, in fact, that he makes a lot of gay people, we hear all kinds of percentages but the truth is closer to 10% of the world’s population has same sex attraction.

I could not understand my son until I started looking at life from his eyes. It took my brother, Alan, who I want to say a few things about because he died of cancer on July 7. Alan left the church a few years back because (as BusDriver would say) Alan falls under the type 2 category of Mormon…". as they’re searching, they are finding things that contradict the things they may have learned in Primary and Sunday School. Some of those things as Elder Ballard has recently mentioned are “less known or controversial, such as polygamy, seer stones, different accounts of the First Vision, the process of translation of the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham, gender issues, race and the priesthood, or a Heavenly Mother.” I would fall under the type 3 category of Mormon who has a strong testimony of JS and a complete restoration
…After a time, Alan realized that he needed the gospel in his life so he came roaring back to the point that he encouraged his sons to go on missions and accepted a calling into a BYU bishopric and that is where he served until his death. My brother is an honest man and when he died 100s of former employees came to his funeral because he loved them and valued their point of view. He loved and understood perfectly that “We are all God’s children” especially gay LDS kids. When I set him apart as a high priest, the only thing that came to my mind that day was to tell him the he would save lives and reach students that no one else could relate to. Since his death, I have had several students approach me to tell me that he did in fact save their lives.

It was my brother Alan, who helped me understand what my son Ryan is going through. We spent years talking about how the plan of salvation does not have a place for gay people. We can shout from the roof tops that “We love and respect you” but…all they hear is “you must be celibate and you can’t be in any long term loving relationship or you will be excommunicated”.

And so LDS kids kill themselves or in the case of my son, they leave the church and become bitter toward it. My son served a mission, he was the seminary president, he tried to do the LDS thing and merry a gal in the temple but in the end, he could not live a lie and certainly was not going to put this sweet girl through hell to please everyone but himself. (over 90% of all marriages between gay/straight couples ends up in divorce)

What works for us is to love and include all of our kids in everything we do, including my son’s partner. We just love them and will let God sort it out. I would hope as a church we could do a little better job of it too.

[fish]

I know Glenn posted on the BYU and the Big 12 thread but it bares being played here. If you would watch it til the end, the students talk about praying about their gayness…every interesting stuff. BTY, there are 1,800 gay students enrolled in BYU and that number only reflects those who have “come out”. I would think that the true number is closer double or triple that.

[JCoug]

I think there are several issues that are connected to this one. Issues that contribute to it, issues that facilitate it, issues that compound it.

I think our sex-obsessed culture compounds the problems with sexual identification, gender identity crisis’ and immorality, whether a person is heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual (increasing in popularity) and transgender.

I foresee the level of immoral behavior increasing in the future. The obsession will diverge into relationships with any/everything as our society is compelled to accept every type of lifestyle choice.

Please don’t misconstrue my comments as a criticism of anyone’s feelings or inclinations. It is not. I have as much compassion and love for those who must struggle with those feelings, in this life experience, as anyone. Also, there are a variety and number of different reasons why a person might feel unloved, disturbed or alone and choose to commit suicide, it is very complicated.

Lastly, I am more aligned with Roy’s ideas and less so with Ron, but that is okay. Perhaps if Ron’s comments didn’t seem so patronizing and critical of the church all the time… it gets old, but it is also a popular cultural phenomena… to criticize all religions, particularly the truth. It makes it easier to justify alternative choices… of any kind.

[JCoug]

@fish

We spent years talking about how the plan of salvation does not have a place for gay people. We can shout from the roof tops that “We love and respect you” but…all they hear is “you must be celibate and you can’t be in any long term loving relationship or you will be excommunicated”.

And so LDS kids kill themselves or in the case of my son, they leave the church and become bitter toward it. My son served a mission, he was the seminary president, he tried to do the LDS thing and merry a gal in the temple but in the end, he could not live a lie and certainly was not going to put this sweet girl through hell to please everyone but himself. (over 90% of all marriages between gay/straight couples ends up in divorce)

What works for us is to love and include all of our kids in everything we do, including my son’s partner. We just love them and will let God sort it out. I would hope as a church we could do a little better job of it too.

I agree with most of what you are saying Chris but there are a couple of points I disagree with. I believe the plan of salvation is available to everyone. Why do you think otherwise? Most of our struggles and challenges in this life are physical in nature. There is a place for your son in the plan of salvation… don’t believe there is not. Many things can and will be different in the next life. Also, the celibacy comment and its’ connection to a long term loving relationship aren’t necessarily connected. A long term, loving relationship does not equal excommunication.

Your son can come back and hopefully he will at some point. He doesn’t have to please ANYONE, except his Heavenly Father… not other members, not other people, not you, not his partner… not ANYONE except his Heavenly Father.

That is the truth.

[Glenn]

That was a touching story about your family. Thanks for sharing. I’m sorry for the loss of your brother. My brother-in-law went on a mission and eventually entered into a gay relationship for several years. My father-in-law was tormented by the thought that he was somehow responsible by the way he fathered his son. I learned through that experience that gay kids don’t choose to be gay. The challenges gay kids face in the LDS culture can be overwhelming. It can be overwhelming to LDS parents of gay children. The Plan of Salvation and the eternal welfare of your gay children can be a source of anxiety and concern. As I look back on our experience, I sometimes think this issue is just as much a test for the rest of us who need to learn how to be less judgmental and more loving and compassionate. I met Michael Wilcox, a popular LDS speaker, on a group tour recently and liked what he said. He claims to be a member of the Church of the Kind-hearted. He said it wouldn’t surprise him if we get to heaven and find out that God has to straighten us out on a few things. As long as we are kind-hearted and compassionate and follow Christ as best we can, all the rest will get sorted out in due time just as you said.

[fish]

My game plan is to love my son unconditionally and love his spouse in the same way that we love our other children’s spouses.

Our former and current bishops watched our children grow up have been very welcoming and supportive, for which we are grateful.

[grasshopper]

Ron, I can’t even begin to state my frustration with your response. You are all over the place between doctrine, commandments, Declaration of Independence, Constitution and liberal revolutionary laws. It’s making my head spin!

Ron, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is really simple. He said, “Keep MY Commandments.” One of His commandments is to not involve ourselves with homosexual behavior. It’s that simple. Do we allow students to roam around naked? In San Francisco you can do that. And, it may be that in the future, do to the pursuit of happiness, everyone will be doing it everywhere, including on Temple grounds and maybe inside Temples. You may say I’m being ridiculous but that’s how your post sounded, ridiculous.

Let me straighten you out on the “pursuit of happiness.” The original language was Pursuit of PROPERTY! See, that was probably the most important reason for people escaping Europe. “Happiness” therefore in context with the founding fathers was to be happy because you could own your property (house, land, money, clothes…) No one could take them away.

As far as how members looked at Blacks before 1978, it wasn’t any different than afterwards. Only about 5% of Temple workers didn’t like it. Most likely the vast majority of members were happy when the ban of Priesthood was lifted. People accepted blacks without prejudice in the Church. I saw no bigotry at BYU in 1977 when I moved there. I had several friends in classes who were black. People treated Keith Rice with love and respect. I don’t remember any lynchings in Utah during or before that time.

As far as Prop 8 was concerned, we were told by President Monson that this was our present day Sodom and Gomorrah issue. What does that tell you? It should tell you that the Plan of Salvation revolves around Eternal couples procreating their own worlds. Hard to do for homosexual couples. As we have been told before again and again, Gay marriage goes against the Plan of Salvation. How many more General Conference talks are needed before you follow the prophets and apostles. Not only current ones, but the ones that wrote the New Testament condemning homosexual behavior equal to all vile and evil acts.

Now, after that is said and I support our Prophets, Seers and Revelators on this issue, we are also taught to treat people right. Respect them. Love them. They have their agency. If they can’t choose the right, then they have the right and freedom to go elsewhere. But, in no way will it ever be acceptable in the Church to behave evil. And, as long as BYU is a Church owned and run school, it will never be acceptable to show evil affection. Romans Chapter 1. Read it.

[grasshopper]

Ya, I just thought Ron’s comments were all over the place confusing the doctrines and commandments with the Declaration of Independence and Constitution. Bizzare for sure. With that said, I see that the evil doers of society are in fact destroying freedom of religion and speech. We will find it harder to live the Gospel the way the Lord has spelled it out for us. It just bothers me when members of the Lord’s true Church help move along the Devil’s works by siding with the Devil’s works.

[Ronald_Uharriet]

Roy,

It is probably best that you and I try not to communicate. Nothing improves with our communication. It only gets worse.
You continually look for the bad in all that I say, with nothing bad intended, as you set yourself up as all good, which I
do not see in you.

" use such pejorative words like: “push,” “demanding,” “forced.” It is not okay for me to use these words, but it is okay for you to
use words like punish"

Try to find some good in what people are trying to say instead of constantly trying to find something evil. It just is not very nice.[quote=“busdriver449, post:40, topic:6868”]
o
[/quote]

[grasshopper]

Ya, you are correct! When we get to heaven, he’s going to ask us if we kept his commandments and loved him first. Then, he will ask how we treated our neighbors. You might want to look up what it means “neighbors.” You might be surprised. And, of course, he will ask if we warned our neighbors, family and all those we come into contact with. You might be surprised that Church hold’s “courts” still. The Lord still wants his Church and Temple’s clean. I’ve never seen anything that would indicate the Lord wants us to shoot for the Terrestrial or Telestial worlds. Or Perdition for that matter. Have you ever heard any General Authority of the Church teach Homosexual behavior is equal to what happened with the blacks and the Priesthood? Apples and Oranges I would say.

I also believe that there are a number of gays and lesbians that thought their environment choose to be gay. Bisexual persons have a choice and they should choose heterosexual, should they not? I know several abused men and woman who are gay and choose to be gay because of their abuse. Is there a possible genetic flaw that causes someone to feel attracted to the same sex? I don’t doubt that. But, they still have a commandment to follow. I know a few teachers at BYU when I went there in the 70’s were most likely lesbians. But, they also held Temple recommends and did not fall prey to temptation. They will receive a great reward in Heaven when their bodies will be raised to perfection and incorruption. They will not have those urges anymore to do evil and wickedness with their bodies. Romans Chapter 1.